Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

This is a paper that I wrote on the need to welcome liberals to the cause of the Second Amendment. I've found that we as a movement don't do that very well. Matter of fact, generally, we suck at it. If we want to keep our rights thereunder, we've got to change that.

Some of what you read in there, you might not like. If that happens, that may be a good thing. My goal is to point out where we could be doing things better, and I assure you, these are definitely areas for improvement on the part of our movement. We've got to market our message better than we currently are.

We need to get more liberals on our side. And yes, it most certainly can be done. We just need to *do* it.

http://www.cmosnetworks.com/WhyWeNeedTo ... erals.html

- T

I agree with what you say, CowboyT.

We may disagree on issues, we may be on opposite ends of the political spectrum, we may be different races and faiths, but the ideals upon which this great nation was built should be common to all of us. The basic right to bear arms and defend ourselves against foreign aggression, criminal aggression, and the tyranny of an over-zealous government should be upheld by all.

Too many 2A web sites and forums preach a litany of hate instead of inclusion. When you fit the stereotype of the gun owner, you paint a picture that becomes easy for the anti-gunners to sell. Watch the "news" and see who they choose to interview about gun rights. We need to proactively help quash that image by demonstrating a dignified and unified front.

Now, I am not saying we should link arms and sing Kumbaya. In fact, it is a more powerful message when you can say, "CowboyT over there is a bleeding heart liberal and he's wrong on almost every political point, but by all that's holy, I'll stand up for his right to bear arms."

Well written, well argued. I agree, at the 98% level. My uncertainty is due to recent research that shows that people whose minds are already made up are not converted by facts, rather they harden their positions when faced with contrary evidence/information. Perhaps this is related to not wanting to admit they were wrong. So if you are going to bring liberals over to gun rights, or bring conservatives over to not making mean-spirited fun of Obama, you have to find a way to do it that allows them to preserve their egos and not have to "change their minds."

I hope you can find a way to do that, not just for the Second Amendment, but for the sake of the country. The increasing polarization is destroying us all, no matter our persuasion.

A couple of things...

First, I see that you call yourself a "social liberal"? Do you consider yourself a socialist? Do you agree with cap and trade, universal healthcare, wealth redistribution, etc...? Or would you consider yourself more fiscally conservative? Or perhaps even a Constitutional conservative? Just curious, because a "social liberal" does not encompass all the things I think people think of when they hear the words "liberal" or "progressive" these days.

Second, you linked the NRA to heated rhetoric and racist language... or at least that's how I read it. But where are you getting that? I'll admit I don't read NRA literature all the time, but I've never seen the NRA take such positions.

Third, with regard to the psychology of the black community and anti-gun positions, I think there is a much better explanation in "Raging Against Self Defense", and that would be victimhood identity.

In my previous post, I mentioned some recent research that looks at what happens when facts collide with beliefs....the beliefs win, and get even more hardened into place. So someone who "believes" guns are bad and that the 2A is therefore not good to have, isn't going to be moved by contrary facts. If anything, their belief system will harden into place. Same for conservatives who believe liberals are socialists...facts are not likely to change any minds. The citation is at http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas ... re?mode=PF.

So the point is not to argue with facts, even if the other side asks for them. Instead you have to try and change the belief system, and how you do that depends on the situation...it may take stories, trust-building, humor, appeals to family, God, whatever.....but a full frontal attack with facts may be counter-productive. Scary, isn't it, no matter where you stand.

I think the reason most gun owners have such trouble with liberals saying they are pro 2A, is the fact that you are one day going to have to make a choice.

Do you chose:
Option A: Pro-Choice, Pro same-sex marriage, anti-gun
Or
Option B: Pro-Life, anti-gay marriage, and pro gun

Like it or not these are you option most of the time. It's just the way it is. What you chose is what makes you liberal of conservative. It isn't what you say, it's how you vote.

Jakeiscrazy wrote:I think the reason most gun owners have such trouble with liberals saying they are pro 2A, is the fact that you are one day going to have to make a choice.

Do you chose:
Option A: Pro-Choice, Pro same-sex marriage, anti-gun
Or
Option B: Pro-Life, anti-gay marriage, and pro gun

Like it or not these are you option most of the time. It's just the way it is. What you chose is what makes you liberal of conservative. It isn't what you say, it's how you vote.

And that right there is why we need more than two political parties. D's fail for being so heavily anti-gun. R's fail for being anti-almost everything else.

Though in my opinion Abortion is between you and your doctor and not a political issue. It is not my place to judge gay marriage, therefore it is also not a political issue to me. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is all I need to know there.

Sotiris wrote:

Jakeiscrazy wrote:I think the reason most gun owners have such trouble with liberals saying they are pro 2A, is the fact that you are one day going to have to make a choice.

Do you chose:
Option A: Pro-Choice, Pro same-sex marriage, anti-gun
Or
Option B: Pro-Life, anti-gay marriage, and pro gun

Like it or not these are you option most of the time. It's just the way it is. What you chose is what makes you liberal of conservative. It isn't what you say, it's how you vote.

And that right there is why we need more than two political parties. D's fail for being so heavily anti-gun. R's fail for being anti-almost everything else.

Though in my opinion Abortion is between you and your doctor and not a political issue. It is not my place to judge gay marriage, therefore it is also not a political issue to me. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is all I need to know there.

Not to hijack this thread or anything, but I must say that our laws, rules and customs are primarily based on Christian values. So, gay being a sin automagically makes it illegal. Like it or not, the Bible is the basis of a great many of our laws - starting with the 10 Commandments.

The proliferation of pornography on the internet and young children having free, unfettered access to said pornography is hurting our future by introducing perversion to children long before they should even be thinking about sex, let alone some of the gross perversions that can be found on the internet.

I think that over the last couple of years, the term "Liberal" has really been stretched from what it meant 10 years ago.

Sorry for the rant. I have no 2A input on this one right now...just wanted to address one comment from my own personal perspective.

end of hijack - back to the 2A issue

and by the way - I guess my post above is the exact opposite of what you're trying to accomplish...welcoming gays (as one segment of the liberal population) to take up the 2A cause...but to be quite honest with you, I would rather not have some Poof next to me at the range.

Carry on!

On the topic of gays and guns. I was watching Conceal and Carry on Spike(show about people learning to carry at TacPro), and there was a gay guy learning to shoot and I thought, well why not. Nothing wrong with it IMO. However everyone at some point has to pick a side, even not voting is a side.

allingeneral wrote:and by the way - I guess my post above is the exact opposite of what you're trying to accomplish...welcoming gays (as one segment of the liberal population) to take up the 2A cause...but to be quite honest with you, I would rather not have some Poof next to me at the range.

Carry on!

Let me get out my BIG Spoon here


Ok Now how in the heck would you know if they are a "Poof" or not.

I have known several "Poofs" and they all support the 2A as well as hunt and fish and unless you are fiends with them you would never know if you met them at a range.

Ok I can put my Big Spoon away

Isn't this what you are talking about CowboyT? What better way to get the other folks on our side then finding groups of folks on the liberal side that are 2A friendly and get them to help carry the message to the anti-gun crowd.

I agree that we need to learn the language and yes the education of the honest facts to the anti-gun folks is great especialy when you see that light of understanding in thier eyes.

Jakeiscrazy wrote:I think the reason most gun owners have such trouble with liberals saying they are pro 2A, is the fact that you are one day going to have to make a choice.

Do you chose:
Option A: Pro-Choice, Pro same-sex marriage, anti-gun
Or
Option B: Pro-Life, anti-gay marriage, and pro gun

Like it or not these are you option most of the time. It's just the way it is. What you chose is what makes you liberal of conservative. It isn't what you say, it's how you vote.

I've been labeled a Liberal. I'm ok with that. I don't really see myself as the stereotypical Liberal, though.

I'm pro-freedom. If you're really pro-freedom, the above set of choices are really irrelevant - of course, you'll have to take religion out of the equation, which is very difficult for some to do. I'm pro-choice, gay marriage doesn't really bother me (after all, marriage is a secular institution, not a religious one, though we tend to view it as more of the latter - equal rights, anyone?), and I'm neither pro-gun or anti-gun. I choose to own firearms, but I don't use my lifestyle choice as something which to force upon others. Others are free not to own firearms, and they're free not to even like firearms, and I'm ok with that, too. That's their choice. That's the beauty of freedom.

So, if limited to your two choices above, I'm pro all 3 - choice, gay marriage, and guns. Not sure what that makes me - guess I'd better book my ticket to the Island of Misfit Toys, eh? Sucks to be pigeonholed.

Taggure wrote:

allingeneral wrote:and by the way - I guess my post above is the exact opposite of what you're trying to accomplish...welcoming gays (as one segment of the liberal population) to take up the 2A cause...but to be quite honest with you, I would rather not have some Poof next to me at the range.

Carry on!

Ok Now how in the heck would you know if they are a "Poof" or not.

I have known several "Poofs" and they all support the 2A as well as hunt and fish and unless you are fiends with them you would never know if you met them at a range.

If I can't tell whether a person is a poof or not, then I don't care what they do behind closed doors - that's for God to judge. It's the folks who feel like they have something to prove with the whole "lisp/limp wrist/girlish giggles/etc" that really get to me. I don't want to be around it - I don't want my kids around it. I am raising my kids to understand that it's NOT OK - and I hope they do the same when they raise their kids.

Way to set a stereotype there Rick for an entire set of people. And we get all pi$$y when "Liberals" stereotype us as uneducated F-150 drivin' trailer park rednecks. Kettle, meet pot.

chfaunce wrote:Way to set a stereotype there Rick for an entire set of people. And we get all pi$$y when "Liberals" stereotype us as uneducated F-150 drivin' trailer park rednecks. Kettle, meet pot.

I drive an F250, thank you!

Stereotypes are born of reality. And I've seen a lot of reality that fits the stereotype outlined above. Sorry, I just call's 'em like I see's 'em.

I know that I'm not uneducated, so why would I let that bother me?

I really have to stop myself in this discussion. I should have kept it to myself to begin with. I have strong feelings on that particular subject, and I'm not going to apologize for it.

allingeneral wrote:

Taggure wrote:

allingeneral wrote:and by the way - I guess my post above is the exact opposite of what you're trying to accomplish...welcoming gays (as one segment of the liberal population) to take up the 2A cause...but to be quite honest with you, I would rather not have some Poof next to me at the range.

Carry on!

Ok Now how in the heck would you know if they are a "Poof" or not.

I have known several "Poofs" and they all support the 2A as well as hunt and fish and unless you are fiends with them you would never know if you met them at a range.

If I can't tell whether a person is a poof or not, then I don't care what they do behind closed doors - that's for God to judge. It's the folks who feel like they have something to prove with the whole "lisp/limp wrist/girlish giggles/etc" that really get to me. I don't want to be around it - I don't want my kids around it. I am raising my kids to understand that it's NOT OK - and I hope they do the same when they raise their kids.

Not a problem and i ment no insult, but I was just trying to point out that although I have known gay guys that fit your description I have also known others that you wold not know unless you were friend with then or in this case a relative.

allingeneral wrote:

I really have to stop myself in this discussion. I should have kept it to myself to begin with. I have strong feelings on that particular subject, and I'm not going to apologize for it.

Well, there's not a week that goes by that I don't think about trading in the Subeast for an F-250 diesel, FWIW. I'm not even sure why. Probably so I can justify hunting bigger, tastier land critters and buying that camping trailer the wife and I want. 5 or 6 years more of car payments, though... Hmmm...

No problem with having strong feelings, and no need to apologize for it. It's just that, well, it's a little ironic - I mean, there are people out there that believe guns are 'wrong', and that people who own guns should be avoided because we're all "bad" or something. By and large, I don't think anything could be farther from the truth. As has been suggested previously, I think that if an environment of tolerance and understanding were fostered, we'd be in a better place. I'm also from a home where for the most part I was free to ask questions, gather information, and make my own decisions. Though, dad did k*ck my a$$ when he caught me smoking.

Look you can be a liberal and own guns. B ut it is very hard to be a liberal and support the 2A thru anything more than your words.

chfaunce wrote:As has been suggested previously, I think that if an environment of tolerance and understanding were fostered, we'd be in a better place.

And what you mean by that is an environment of tolerance and understanding for only YOUR point of view. Other points of view that clash with your "tolerance" just simply cannot be tolerated.

TheGodfather wrote:

chfaunce wrote:As has been suggested previously, I think that if an environment of tolerance and understanding were fostered, we'd be in a better place.

And what you mean by that is an environment of tolerance and understanding for only YOUR point of view. Other points of view that clash with your "tolerance" just simply cannot be tolerated.

Pot, meet kettle?

A constructive response as always, I see, Ben. Perhaps you should reread my entire response.