Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

by **Kreutz** » Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:33:26

shepherd wrote:As far as "Any talk in defense of Dixie is not tolerated and discussion of secession as a means to restore sovereignty is verboten". That is close, but not very. Like I said earlier. The war between the states is not our focus. I tell the FNGs at the Meet & Greets, the Civil War was an important time during our nations history, but that is not our focus. Training is the focus. We also ask our member to not use the VCM for political expression. That is what the VCDL, GOA, NRA, and TEA Party is for. We are not concerned whether you are an R, D or I, but you must be a legal resident of VA to join. When a member can't show enough self control to keep the politics and pet peeves for another time and place, then how can we trust him/her to have the kind of self control while holding a loaded weapon?

Training for what?

Anyway, just remember, theres a good chance at least 50% of your members on the FBI/ATF/DHS payroll....so be careful what you say and do. :whistle:

by **shepherd** » Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:58:49

Kreutz wrote:Training for what?

Anyway, just remember, theres a good chance at least 50% of your members on the FBI/ATF/DHS payroll....so be careful what you say and do.

I think the more accurate question is what kind of training do we do. That depends on who is doing it. We have several members who are former military who just want to keep up with their training. They have become those who teach the rest of us about what they know as it relates to militia. This is another difference between the VCM an other so-called militia groups who are mainly survivalists. The survival skills we learn are important as it relates to unit cohesion.

A lot of people think of militia men as a kind of back-woods Zoro. And as recent history has shown us, with the help of the liberal press, they are right in most respects. The VCM is not that. There might have been elements of that when it was a yahoo group, but then again, you could say, those were the days it was a "group of yahoos". :roll:

And you're right about the alphabet gang. Some have been a little obvious when the drop by to check us out. They hang around for a while, but find nothing to report, which is the way it should be. When you're driving down the highway going just over the limit and you pass a cop, are you guilty of speeding? Yes. Is he doing the job he's paid to do? Yes. If you're really exceeding the limit you get a ticket.

by **shepherd** » Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:10:48

Jakeiscrazy wrote::welcome: Interesting post. It should be noted that you post quoted zephyp but I believe wylde007 said it. I would like to know more about VCM. You mentioned training once a month. Who trains you? How well organized are you? Large numbers or small numbers? Rank system?

Thanks. I found this thread quite by accident and recognized some of the ranting by a former forum member. Thought I'd read it (tired now) but it is basically why we booted him off our forum. The original topic, which I am at present trying to steer toward was about the VC'sM, or more accurately the VCM. However it was hijacked by someone who (Travis? :wave:

) although incredibly versed on an important time in our nations history, can only sing one song. Take a look, 5 pages and we are finally back on track.

So let's move back to the original topic: I answered this in a post just above. The numbers are small as they are only those who participate. Recruiting is slow and people are leery of joining. Of course I can't blame them because of the current situation, but even so we are still just a small part of the unorganized militia mentioned in our state constitution. It is accurate to say that you do not have to be a member of the VCM to be in the unorganized militia. That is The People. Taking away the uniform and monthly meetings doesn't make the militia go away either. That is what makes Virginia so great.

Another interesting detail that should be mentioned. The VCM doesn't not self deploy. That is up to the Governor and only after the VDF has been sent, and only when the Governor asks for unorganized militia(s) (the peoples) help. The unorganized militia are at the bottom of that organization chart and that includes the VCM.

Shepherd

by **gunderwood** » Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:32:59

Kreutz wrote:
gunderwood wrote:In the end it is nothing but an interesting debate because whomever has the will and arms to force the other makes the rules.

Glad to see you (finally) agree with me.

Freedom is illusory, might makes right. Speak up, get smashed down.

That isn't correct...it's simply an indictment of the moral character of those pushing the buttons in our government today...which is generally representative of the moral character of the people who put them there.

That was the rational foundation for the existence of government in this country...it exists to protect the rest of use from those who use use force to infringe on our liberties. In that sense there needs to be very few laws. For example, we don't need any carry laws whatsoever. If you aren't harming, have harmed someone, or are threatening to do so with a firearm I simply don't care WTF you do with it. OC on your hat holster for all I care. Lug an M60 around if that floats your boat. When you actually harm someone (which includes their property due to your negligence), then we throw the book at you.

It seems to me that most of the mala prohibita is based on the flawed logic of something bad could happen...as if there is a state of existence in this universe whereby there is no risk. Speed limits, drug laws, firearm laws, etc. etc. are all based on that fallacy.

The problem is that the immoral people who have no problem using force to make others behave how they want them too (where no ethical violation existed) have put other immoral leaders in power. In 1776 the moral people decided the thing to do was to shoot the bastards...the same goes for most revolutions in "Christian" countries. When good men can no longer stand by and do nothing they clean house. In a very real sense it is the restoration of freedom, but it's a state of existence that requires work to maintain. That doesn't make freedom illusory, it simply means it doesn't exist and can't when a$$hats are running the place.

by **shepherd** » Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:34:05

Kreutz wrote:Freedom is illusory, might makes right. Speak up, get smashed down.

Hulk Smash! :bangin:

by **shepherd** » Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:42:45

gunderwood wrote:The problem is that the immoral people who have no problem using force to make others behave how they want them too (where no ethical violation existed) have put other immoral leaders in power. In 1776 the moral people decided the thing to do was to shoot the bastards...the same goes for most revolutions in "Christian" countries. When good men can no longer stand by and do nothing they clean house. In a very real sense it is the restoration of freedom, but it's a state of existence that requires work to maintain. That doesn't make freedom illusory, it simply means it doesn't exist and can't when a$$hats are running the place.

Man, you can't say it any better than that. I am wondering about the Oath Keepers and other former military and retired government employees who took an oath to defend the constitution. What happens when the Government no longer follows that document. Does the oath no longer matter? I believe that is when it matters the most.

by **Reverenddel** » Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:50:22

Also keep in mind... "Militia" can be a LOOSE term!

If you have a bunch of guys who go camping, shooting, fishing, and hiking... Technically? They're not doing much more than early militia's. Learning to survive, finding the creature comforts, and practicing their craft.

(shrugs) I ain't hurtin' anyone... until they attempt to hurt me FIRST! :roll:

by **Kreutz** » Tue, 19 Jul 2011 20:56:08

gunderwood wrote:
Kreutz wrote:
gunderwood wrote:In the end it is nothing but an interesting debate because whomever has the will and arms to force the other makes the rules.

Glad to see you (finally) agree with me.

Freedom is illusory, might makes right. Speak up, get smashed down.

That isn't correct...it's simply an indictment of the moral character of those pushing the buttons in our government today...which is generally representative of the moral character of the people who put them there.

That was the rational foundation for the existence of government in this country...it exists to protect the rest of use from those who use use force to infringe on our liberties. In that sense there needs to be very few laws. For example, we don't need any carry laws whatsoever. If you aren't harming, have harmed someone, or are threatening to do so with a firearm I simply don't care WTF you do with it. OC on your hat holster for all I care. Lug an M60 around if that floats your boat. When you actually harm someone (which includes their property due to your negligence), then we throw the book at you.

It seems to me that most of the mala prohibita is based on the flawed logic of something bad could happen...as if there is a state of existence in this universe whereby there is no risk. Speed limits, drug laws, firearm laws, etc. etc. are all based on that fallacy.

The problem is that the immoral people who have no problem using force to make others behave how they want them too (where no ethical violation existed) have put other immoral leaders in power. In 1776 the moral people decided the thing to do was to shoot the bastards...the same goes for most revolutions in "Christian" countries. When good men can no longer stand by and do nothing they clean house. In a very real sense it is the restoration of freedom, but it's a state of existence that requires work to maintain. That doesn't make freedom illusory, it simply means it doesn't exist and can't when a$$hats are running the place.

Yes yes, I'm aware of the principles this nation was founded on....classic case of theory vs practice. In reality, this government has frightening firepower and has shown its willingness to use it at home and abroad.

I'll keep my mouth shut, the militia types are free to get themselves cluster-bombed if they wish.

Edit:

George Washington never had to plan for one of these paying a visit to Vally Forge:

The asymmetry of force between say, the militia (already forgot its name) in this thread (the small % that aren't feds and even smaller % that would fight) and the government means the citizenry simply have no chance. Trust me, its best to shut up, pay your taxes, and MYOB.

by **Taggure** » Tue, 19 Jul 2011 21:51:00

Like i said this getting interesting

by **gunderwood** » Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:21:27

Kreutz wrote:Yes yes, I'm aware of the principles this nation was founded on....classic case of theory vs practice. In reality, this government has frightening firepower and has shown its willingness to use it at home and abroad.

I'll keep my mouth shut, the militia types are free to get themselves cluster-bombed if they wish.

Edit:

George Washington never had to plan for one of these paying a visit to Vally Forge:

The asymmetry of force between say, the militia (already forgot its name) in this thread (the small % that aren't feds and even smaller % that would fight) and the government means the citizenry simply have no chance. Trust me, its best to shut up, pay your taxes, and MYOB.

The immorality of the people and their government has consequences. Those consequences ultimately destroy the previous state. It the people have a change of heart it usually leads to revolution, otherwise it usually ends in collapse. What comes after the collapse depends on a lot of things.

Have you forgotten the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan so quickly? Asymmetric forces are very dangerous to the conventional military...particularly when supported by the populous. As for the absurd suggestion of a nuke...the weapons power and the resulting horror is ultimately its undoing. Neither a government, nor a militia could ever use a nuke and remain legit. Please note that I'm not saying that someone wouldn't be stupid enough to use one (even that's a really big assumption), but rather that the use of one is the fastest way to loose that fictional future war.

Asymmetric wars are a b*tch by definition! Mix combatants and civilians in the war zone and you have serious trouble...toss in your industrial base and it's hell. It's quiet possible for either side to win. It's a very American fallacy to view war as mostly a function of tools. Wars are fought with tools, but they are won by people. Big, cool, expensive tools can help you, but they can't win the contest anymore than a $5k race gun will win you the next shooting competition.

The problem with revolutions is that they are only apparent after the fact. Knowing that 1776 occurred, it is very easy to read material from the two decades previous (including an interesting sermon by Johnathan Mayhew: http://www.lawandliberty.org/mayhew.htm) and see it coming. In order for a revolution to be successful the hearts and minds of the people need to change first, then all more reasonable courses of action need to be exhausted. Only then is a revolution likely. Only then can it get the support it needs to win.

Again, the problem isn't knowing after the fact what caused these changes, but rather noticing them as they occur. The end product, revolution, often culminates quickly, but it was a long time coming. You are correct in stating that the percentage of people willing to fight a revolution (which isn't what the militia is about in the first place, but I digress) since the last attempt (the Civil War) is probably very small. However, that's the problem with hypotheticals. It's easy to talk big and then cower when the real deal happens...but it also goes the other way, particularly in real revolutions.

Real revolutions are not riots.

by **Jakeiscrazy** » Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:47:31

shepherd wrote:
Jakeiscrazy wrote::welcome: Interesting post. It should be noted that you post quoted zephyp but I believe wylde007 said it. I would like to know more about VCM. You mentioned training once a month. Who trains you? How well organized are you? Large numbers or small numbers? Rank system?

Thanks. I found this thread quite by accident and recognized some of the ranting by a former forum member. Thought I'd read it (tired now) but it is basically why we booted him off our forum. The original topic, which I am at present trying to steer toward was about the VC'sM, or more accurately the VCM. However it was hijacked by someone who (Travis? ) although incredibly versed on an important time in our nations history, can only sing one song. Take a look, 5 pages and we are finally back on track.

So let's move back to the original topic: I answered this in a post just above. The numbers are small as they are only those who participate. Recruiting is slow and people are leery of joining. Of course I can't blame them because of the current situation, but even so we are still just a small part of the unorganized militia mentioned in our state constitution. It is accurate to say that you do not have to be a member of the VCM to be in the unorganized militia. That is The People. Taking away the uniform and monthly meetings doesn't make the militia go away either. That is what makes Virginia so great.

Another interesting detail that should be mentioned. The VCM doesn't not self deploy. That is up to the Governor and only after the VDF has been sent, and only when the Governor asks for unorganized militia(s) (the peoples) help. The unorganized militia are at the bottom of that organization chart and that includes the VCM.

Shepherd

Very interesting, has the governor of Virginia ever called upon the unorganized militia?

by **shepherd** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 05:38:27

Jakeiscrazy wrote: Very interesting, has the governor of Virginia ever called upon the unorganized militia?

Not to my knowledge, but the system is in place. It has an interesting history, but to my knowledge the answer is no. And that is the point of the VCM, and in spite of some here who have criticized it's existence, it's leadership, training, or whatever, the VCM is really just men and women who care about their state and want to carry on a tradition that is almost lost in today's modern culture. There is nothing scary about them or what they do. In a lot of way, the VCM is still very unorganized. And up until last year was pretty much like this forum, comprised of a bunch of keyboard commandos letting out a lot of quasi-patriotic gas.

Everything changed when face-to-face meetings and monthly participation was required to remain in it's ranks. A logo was designed and uniforms voted on, leadership structure was decided and meetings took place. I think the biggest surprise of all was that when people started getting together we found out just how ordinary everyone was.

With the help of one very talented young programmer our new forum was created with many cool features built in that helped to unify members across the state, but also help build local unit cohesion. Each area is unique and each unit has a different style of leadership, but all maintain the same desire to continue in a tradition that is, for the lack of a better term, Virginian.

To join you must submit to a face-to-face meeting. To continue you must participate once a month. You can't just "phone it in" like it was in the past.

And like I said in an earlier post, the VCM is just a very small part of the unorganized militia in Virginia. If they disbanded tomorrow, the militia would not go away. The militia is the people.

by **shepherd** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 05:57:30

Reverenddel wrote:Also keep in mind... "Militia" can be a LOOSE term!

If you have a bunch of guys who go camping, shooting, fishing, and hiking... Technically? They're not doing much more than early militia's. Learning to survive, finding the creature comforts, and practicing their craft.

(shrugs) I ain't hurtin' anyone... until they attempt to hurt me FIRST!

Actually, I think your definition for militia is incorrect in that "We the People" are the militia. Sitting around in the woods learning bush craft does not make you militia. Carrying guns and wearing camo does not make you militia. What does the second amendment say? ... the right of the people ... That is the one thing that scares liberals the most.

One of the most destructive things I've seen done to the second amendment was by the NRA. In their Second Amendment Primer, page 19 they show the amendment split into two section.

A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state ...

... the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

By splitting the amendment in two it is easier for politicians to ignore the unpopular part - the part that contains the M word, and focus on the second half, which when it boils down to it, only gives the people the right to purchase and own for weapons, but this is not what the framers intended.

We the People are the militia because the people written about in the Bill of Rights are the same people in the Constitution.

Splitting the amendment in two has allowed the Statists to demonize the first and regulate the second. It's sad to think that our side did so much unrepentant damage. To find out just how bad the situation is, try calling the NRI-ILA guys.

The NRA is great for training in shooting and gun safety, no doubt about that, but their legal department is completely off the farm without any signs of turning back. And it's unfortunate because the ranks of the NRA are enormous and equally ignorant of just how bad the situation is.

The two halves must be joined again.

by **Reverenddel** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:04:41

George Mason: "I ask you sir, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people."

I understand your terms for "militia", I was using the fact that the guv'mint, and those unfamiliar can use a group of outdoorsman as a focal point for "militia -busting".

Trust me. We had to DISTANCE ourselves from the term "militia" when people see our facebook photos.

by **Kreutz** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:15:40

gunderwood wrote:Have you forgotten the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan so quickly? Asymmetric forces are very dangerous to the conventional military...particularly when supported by the populous. As for the absurd suggestion of a nuke...the weapons power and the resulting horror is ultimately its undoing. Neither a government, nor a militia could ever use a nuke and remain legit. Please note that I'm not saying that someone wouldn't be stupid enough to use one (even that's a really big assumption), but rather that the use of one is the fastest way to loose that fictional future war.

Asymmetric wars are a b*tch by definition! Mix combatants and civilians in the war zone and you have serious trouble...toss in your industrial base and it's hell. It's quiet possible for either side to win. It's a very American fallacy to view war as mostly a function of tools. Wars are fought with tools, but they are won by people. Big, cool, expensive tools can help you, but they can't win the contest anymore than a $5k race gun will win you the next shooting competition.

Iraq and Afghanistan are completely different.

1) They are far away. Distance increases supply lines, which screws with logistics.

2) Their populace consists of young angry people hardened by oppression, hunger, and accustomed to violence. Ours consists of morbidly obese people that go into conniptions when the cost of a stamp rises one cent.

This is quite a disparity.

In order for a revolution to be successful the hearts and minds of the people need to change first, then all more reasonable courses of action need to be exhausted. Only then is a revolution likely. Only then can it get the support it needs to win.

Again, have you been to America? Have you seen the size and laziness of these people?

by **Reverenddel** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:48:34

"Again, have you been to America? Have you seen the size and laziness of these people?"

G, I agree with you most of the time...

But this time?

Kreutz has you. The apathy of the American Citizen based on their steady diet of cable tv, high speed internet, and junk food has created bluntly... a majority of dependent wussies who couldn't survive any major disaster longer than a couple days...

It's the difference between "preppers", and "survivalists".

People make fun of survivalists... until they watch Les Stroud, Bear Grylls, Cody Lundin, or Dave Canterbury. It's not all fat men with expensive race guns, and freeze dried food. It's a mentality.

And right now? America is weak. Period.

by **shepherd** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:37:47

Reverenddel wrote:George Mason: "I ask you sir, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people."

I understand your terms for "militia", I was using the fact that the guv'mint, and those unfamiliar can use a group of outdoors man as a focal point for "militia -busting".

Trust me. We had to DISTANCE ourselves from the term "militia" when people see our facebook photos.

I love the George Mason quotes about militias. Speaking of Facebook - Check it out. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Virginia-Citizen-Militia-Northern-Virginia-Unit/149748608419802

I understood your meaning. That is why it is important to re-brand the M word. Not change it, but put it in a different context. For example - structuring the VCM to act like a volunteer fire department to be able to augment first responders is very much like the Committees of Safety. It would get people off the couch and get them involved in their community, get them in touch with local authorities, break down the barrier between the professionals and those who pay their wages. In a society like that neighborhood dynamics would change. My guess is one effect would be that crime would drop. Something as simple as neighborhood watch is a good example of this, but on a broader scale. it would truly be Virginian's taking care of Virginian's.

by **wylde007** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:54:58

shepherd wrote:Wow, this is so inaccurate I don't know where to begin. So much has changed with the VCM since we dropped the "'s", abandoned the Virginia Militia Yahoo Group, and reorganized to become Virginia Citizen Militia. http://www.virginiacitizenmilitia.org/index.html

So it is inaccurate now, but a year ago it was spot on. I gave up on your pretend army when I discovered it was what I thought it was - an avenue to "defend Amurka". Amurka doesn't need to be defended from anyone but itself.

We also do not focus on the war between the states, but instead look at the origins of the militia in America as our model.

And that is why you are a joke. You do not concentrate on the possibility that SEPARATION from the most putrid of unions and the government of Lincoln could be the solution to the problem - instead you play army in the woods and wait for what? Mexico? China? CANADA to invade?

The premise of a Militia is sovereign defense. Our sovereignty has been stolen from us by the very government you would suffer to serve. What are you defending if not our sovereignty?

We also recommend our members to read Dr Vieira's book, Constitutional Homeland Security to help them better understand our goals.

Perhaps you should go back and read it again - because you ain't gettin' it.

I don't have anything else to say about your little band of statist moops and your pirated logo.

by **mamabearCali** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:41:52

Reverenddel wrote:"Again, have you been to America? Have you seen the size and laziness of these people?"

G, I agree with you most of the time...

But this time?

Kreutz has you. The apathy of the American Citizen based on their steady diet of cable tv, high speed internet, and junk food has created bluntly... a majority of dependent wussies who couldn't survive any major disaster longer than a couple days...

It's the difference between "preppers", and "survivalists".

People make fun of survivalists... until they watch Les Stroud, Bear Grylls, Cody Lundin, or Dave Canterbury. It's not all fat men with expensive race guns, and freeze dried food. It's a mentality.

And right now? America is weak. Period.

Maybe--but I am seeing things and hearing things now that tell me something is afoot and people are not as asleep as they might have been 5 years ago. My husband (who is not a prepper or a survivalist by any stretch of the imagination) had told me to start slowly building water supplies and food supplies just in case (while he buys more ammo and looks to get a few spare handguns). My parents who are quite happy go lucky kind of people have begun to think that everything is not as stable as it seems, and were asking me the other day if canadian goose can be eaten if the need was there. Other friends who don't seem like the type at all are discussing survival techniques of heating and lighting if the electrical grid was damaged somehow.

It seems like a huge puzzle that I know will eventually all go together but I can't tell what the picture will look like. We have a federal government sticking it's hands into everything imaginable, yet the size of government must shrink somehow because of the $$ constraints. Our national debt is skyrocketing, while our economy is shaky at best. Our Demographics are problematic (but not as bad as Europe). There is an enormous wave of violence threatening the border areas of country. People are very sharply divided in what they see as the appropriate role of government. The threat of violent Islamic extremism is real and it is a danger (again more to Europe than here), but it is still a threat. Our politicians seem to have a bad habit of taking science and politicizing it and choosing winners and losers,and then pushing the winners products on the American population. At the same time we have bunches of people realizing that the status quo may not always be as it has always been so they are thinking carefully about how to keep their family safe and trying to limit the gov't role in their families at the same time the gov't is trying to expand it's role. I don't know how the pieces are going to fall together. There are many ways it could, some would be horrific. Others would still be bad, but maybe not as violent. Anyway you slice it something is going to change in our country-- how soon--I don't know. Something is afoot.

Many Americans are lazy and lulled to sleep by technology. At the same time many Americans are waking up and are using that same technology to get themselves ready for whatever may come. Additionally we have many thousands of brave veterans who are tougher than your average couch potato. Also to answer your worry Kruetz about a huge military attack on a civilian group on American soil (an A bomb is the picture you had) those cool toys that are big and bad would have to be employed by the military--who have sworn an oath to defend the constitution and the American people as a whole--annihilating a whole city would fall outside that oath. So I still have hope that if we were taken over by a government that did something like "suspended the bill of rights entirely" that those in power would find a great many of those tools unusable. No what I think we have to fear the most is a slow and gradual decent into tyranny that is hard to detect.

by **wylde007** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:03:21

mamabearCali wrote:Also to answer your worry Kruetz about a huge military attack on a civilian group on American soil (an A bomb is the picture you had) those cool toys that are big and bad would have to be employed by the military--who have sworn an oath to defend the constitution and the American people as a whole--annihilating a whole city would fall outside that oath.

And they would NEVER do such a thing.

Again.

:bangin:

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