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Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby dorminWS » Sat, 18 Feb 2012 17:55:40

SHMIV wrote:
dorminWS wrote:
Nobody here is going to change his/her opinion.



That's not necessarily true. There are plenty of folk that lurk in the background and never utter a word; we only know the thoughts of those who post.

Besides, my personal opinion has been changed by other points of view on this site, in the past. Even when it hasn't, I've certainly re-evaluated my beliefs and opinions on various subjects since I started frequenting VGOF.

Points brought up by you, Kreutz, MamaBear, Allingeneral, and many others have been very beneficial to my personal thought processes.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My reference was to the specific topic of Iraq & Afghanistan, and to tell the truth, I was thinking of the people who were actively posting on the topic at the time. But since I didn't specifically say that, I certainly do beg the pardon of anyone who was offended by my inspecificity. That's one reason I have been trying not to get involved in these kinds of discussions.
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby ratherfish » Sat, 18 Feb 2012 18:00:07

Kreutz wrote:
ratherfish wrote:Wiki smarts is a truely disgusting thing. Specially when the practitioner doesn't include the sources and footnotes....

It is an on line contributory encyclopedia. Most schools disallow it as reference. On line libs live by it of course! It almost always slants their way.

Seems to be the way the same individual understands Holy Scripture... as a buffet to pick and choose verses to do battle against Christianity.

I have been labeled "Christian Zionist" Because I object to neo-nazi propaganda being posted on another site by a moderator. The german site in question surmised that "Jews" were responsable for the civil rights movement in America and viewed it as a means of striking out against "whites"!!!!!!
Dunno, maube he agrees....


Guess I'll have to repeat unanswered questions until the "independant" drives a stake in the ground;
Ummm Mr Kreutz.... Am i Mistaken in reading that you're an Obama supporter? Plan on voting for him?

And you self idently as an "independant" no doubt....voted for Obama last time.....

Mister ... you're a flaming liberal progressive with his eyes closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On a gun board arguing that your messiah isn't planning to take away your 2nd ammendment rights in his second term????

That's Obamazombie country!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OH!

By the way!!!!

Number #3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha
:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


In your very first thread where you came here to bitch about vaguntrader.com as a den of islamonazifascisthomosexualrotarianvegans you self identified as a "Christian Zionist". You were not "labeled" one you liar.

I identified myself as a Christian and a friend of Israel...
Your liberal mind makes up the labels for you....liar.

Shame that thread got deleted, it was a wonderful preview of the pearls of genius and tact you'd be dispersing before us lowly swine.

You've gone from amusing to irritating fast.

And I plan on voting for Ron Paul in the VA primary, but since my choice will be Romney or Obama and they have absolutely no difference except skin color I'll throw my useless non-electoral popular vote to the brotha man over a freaky Mormon robot, what of it?

Fess up...Everyone knows you're a flaming progressive lib...
Anyone who could vote for the aggitator in chief at this point could be nothing else.


Shame Ron Paul wont make it though. I like that guy alot more than Obama such a flaming liberal I am after all.

Paul and obama are much alike on foreign policy....Many old hippies and anti Jew types support both.

I voted for Obama last time over the octogenarian with dementia and anger problems, and the self-promoting whore of a running mate, what of it?

And you're apparently dim enough to vote for him again!!!! Doesn't bode well for your brain size youngun. Sitting on a gun board promoting a socialist who's more than willing to ban you gunning passtime is just well DIM!

Other people having opinions differing from yours really seems to burn your ass, why is that?

Stupidity "burns my ass"
If the shoe fitts...


So now you can post "I SED HE WUZ N OBURMMERZOMBEE HUR HUR HUR" over and over, are you happy?

You like to make up things all who oppose you say, that they didn't say. Does that make YOU happy?

And yes, I consider myself an independent, why shouldn't I? Last I checked Obama won last time in 2008 (thank our White Aryan God!), so, that would have meant mostly everyone was a 'flaming liberal", so why did the Dems get thrashed in 2010? And probably won't do so hot in 2012?

Most figured out they made a great mistake believing the aggitator in chief. Apparently you haven't caught on. Thus self mentally identified as slow you rellegate yourself to spell checking and grammer strawman Nady Nady Boo Boo retorts whenever someone disagrees.

Can it be most people are capable of looking at a myriad of factors between their whopping two choices and then selecting one based on "whatevers closest"?


Of course...

All but the liberal ldealogues who ignore Obamma's utter failure and still believe his lies.

Consider the fact that there are a lot of folks like me out there who simply read your kool aide meanderings and make the internal decision to vote the idiot out rather than take you on.
They Can't even stand at this point to hear the saul alinski like speachifications of the liberal idealogue in chief. Such is his total departure from reality!
I didn't vote for the fool because I looked at his lack of experience, and listened to what he said, but you might be wise to internalise the old addage....
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

...if your voting for obama why are queering the primary?

Enquiring minds want to know?
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby ratherfish » Sat, 18 Feb 2012 18:08:48

gunderwood wrote:@ratherfish

You do your cause great harm expressing it the way you do. Your failure to have a respectful and intelligent conversation makes you sound like a troll. You're quickly becoming another Gat6...



ahhhh

You're right!

That's the exclusive right of Liberals and Progressives.

Foul the cat box and claim victory when no one else can stand the stink!
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby ratherfish » Sat, 18 Feb 2012 18:31:00

We won Iraq the right to determine their own direction. As America always has with the blood of patriots and our own treasure because it was the right thing to do. Obama turned that victory into probable defeat with a precipitous withdrawal announced in advance. Sheer insanity.

Better to leave it a "killing box" for terrorists, rather than New York! A Bush tactic that worked very very well.

Obama's "good war" Afganistan, was an ill conceived political trick which could have better been carried out simply preventing the Taliban from again turning the country into a terrorist training camp. Again a bush tactic Obama continued until a withdrawal became a political bone for his left wing base for re-election.

Afganistan is tribal and probably always will be.

Additionally, liberal/progressive rules of engagement prevented any victory and increased losses in both countries.

Armies blow things up and kill people. Either let them accomplish that goal or leave them at home to train, sleeping with their families at night!
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby Kreutz » Sat, 18 Feb 2012 19:15:50

ratherfish wrote:We won Iraq the right to determine their own direction. As America always has with the blood of patriots and our own treasure because it was the right thing to do. Obama turned that victory into probable defeat with a precipitous withdrawal announced in advance. Sheer insanity.


http://rightwingnews.com/iraq/obama-tak ... -timeline/

(No doubt a very liberal news source above)

President Barack Obama told disabled veterans in Atlanta on Monday that he was fulfilling a campaign promise by ending U.S. combat operations in Iraq “on schedule,” by Aug. 31.

But the timetable for withdrawing U.S. troops in Iraq was decided during the Bush administration with the signing of the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) by U.S. and Iraq officials on Nov. 16, 2008. The Iraqi parliament signed SOFA on Nov. 27, 2008.


You may want to try actually blaming people for things they themselves did. It makes you look slightly less ill informed.

Iraq, like Vietnam is another pointless loss, profitable only for the military industrial complex, commodities/futures traders, and central bankers.

It harbored no 9/11 terrorists, provided none of them (that was Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Egypt-all "allies"), and in a cosmic display of irony the very "political prisoners" held by Saddam were Muslim extremists, which we "liberated" to butcher each other, Iraqi civilians, American and allied forces, and Iraqs ancient Christian population.

We didn't liberate Iraq, we destroyed it, dumped countless lives and money into it....and then left. We didn't even get a t-shirt or a barrel of oil for it...in fact, oil prices have only gone up.

Can't wait to liberate Iran! :hysterical:


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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby Kreutz » Sat, 18 Feb 2012 19:18:42

tursiops wrote:It is hard to take ratherfish seriously when he is able to use 67 exclamation marks in one post, including 37 at the end of just one little sentence, which wasn't actually a sentence anyway.

And then throws in an insane laugh at the end. 8)

Actually, I feel sorry for the poor guy. He is crying out for attention and respect. No thanks, I'll pass on that opportunity.



I don't have cable, don't feel like reading a book (currently reading The Jesuit and the Skull-very fascinating history of the discovery of Peking man by a genius exiled Jesuit priest) and the kids are busy, so, he does the trick for some entertainment.

Go on, give him a poke, he won't disappoint. :whistle:


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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby ratherfish » Sat, 18 Feb 2012 20:05:53

"Iraq harbored no terrorists"

BINGO!!!!!

We lured them in and killed them!

Maybe we lured them out of New York+....YATHINK!!!!!
:hysterical:

My lower intestines clinched after your "military industrial complex hex" libobabble. sorry I couldn't read the rest in my gastro intestional distress!

Also a fun thing to find what you think are incriminating sites (cause their conservative) and PRETEND my thoughts were originated there.....
Fun but stupid.

Thanks for the site though!
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby Kreutz » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 15:32:47

ratherfish wrote:"Iraq harbored no terrorists"

BINGO!!!!!

We lured them in and killed them!


Pretty sure they killed several thousand of our soldiers and over 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians too. YEEHAW! :first:

Maybe we lured them out of New York+....YATHINK!!!!!
:hysterical:


NY is full of liberal jewish communist homosexuals(my home state naturally! :clapping: ); what do you care? On the contrary you would cream yourself if a 9/11 happened every day there.

And in any event, no one was "lured" out. No one was arrested trying to leave to fight in Iraq. No one.

Anyway the NYCPD has a proud tradition in conjunction with the FBI of entrapping mildly retarded Muslims right in NY thank you very much.

My lower intestines clinched after your "military industrial complex hex" libobabble. sorry I couldn't read the rest in my gastro intestional distress!


That wouldn't happen to empty out into your mouth and/or brain would it? Would explain a lot.

Also a fun thing to find what you think are incriminating sites (cause their conservative) and PRETEND my thoughts were originated there.....
Fun but stupid.


Uh, you said the withdrawal was Obama's. It was not. It was Bush's. I'm not "pretending", its called "reading".

Perhaps "See Spot Run", a seminal yet evocative text of a canines determination to be seen engaging in increased locomotion is your level?


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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby gunderwood » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:37:19

dorminWS wrote:As to Afghanistan, The folks who have said you should fight to win are exactly right. That was basically what I was saying. The fact that we didn't is why we'll never know if we could have. The history of imperial ventures in Afghanistan is instructive but certainly not controlling. If our Founding Fathers had thought that way, we'd still be British subjects. Dooga is basically saying "OF COURSE the politicians prevented a winning strategy, but that's what we should expect because that's what they are supposed to do." I suppose that's one way to look at it. Certainly, that approach makes the "war never works" position a self-fulfilling prophecy. But I seem to remember that almost all of those politicians supported going into Afghanistan because there was a clear attack on US citizens on US soil (and, I suspect, because the outrage of the American people made them afraid to play callow political games at that point), and used the proposition that Afghanistan was where we should be fighting because that was a "just war" to justify their politically and ideologically-motivated efforts to hobble and impede the effort in Iraq. After they had assured an ineffectual effort in Iraq, they then proceeded to do the same thing in Afghanistan. You can think what you want, but I think it was largely motivated by a desire to discredit Bush and for political advantage in the 2008 and 2012 elections.

My post that we would never know whether we could have won was no more than that. Frankly, the thing that irks me most about some of these declarations on this subject is their defeatism and derogation of the resolve and capability of US forces and the American people. In my opinion, it is one thing to say "we can't/couldn't have won", and quite another to honestly acknowledge the fact that our political leaders are incapable of putting aside their political ambitions and personal ideologies long enough to pursue US interests. The former is defeatism; the latter intellectual honesty.

Thanks for the clarification. I think we are more or less saying the same thing from different perspectives. IMHO, "winning" can't be an abstract concept, you need clear and articulated goals.
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby ratherfish » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:20:14

Kreutz wrote:
ratherfish wrote:"Iraq harbored no terrorists"

BINGO!!!!!

We lured them in and killed them!


Pretty sure they killed several thousand of our soldiers and over 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians too. YEEHAW! :first:

Maybe we lured them out of New York+....YATHINK!!!!!
:hysterical:


NY is full of liberal jewish communist homosexuals(my home state naturally! :clapping: ); what do you care? On the contrary you would cream yourself if a 9/11 happened every day there.

And in any event, no one was "lured" out. No one was arrested trying to leave to fight in Iraq. No one.

Anyway the NYCPD has a proud tradition in conjunction with the FBI of entrapping mildly retarded Muslims right in NY thank you very much.

My lower intestines clinched after your "military industrial complex hex" libobabble. sorry I couldn't read the rest in my gastro intestional distress!


That wouldn't happen to empty out into your mouth and/or brain would it? Would explain a lot.

Also a fun thing to find what you think are incriminating sites (cause their conservative) and PRETEND my thoughts were originated there.....
Fun but stupid.


Uh, you said the withdrawal was Obama's. It was not. It was Bush's. I'm not "pretending", its called "reading".

Perhaps "See Spot Run", a seminal yet evocative text of a canines determination to be seen engaging in increased locomotion is your level?



Kreutz, you make up lies about what conservative say to you when confronted here. That's scarry enough in that you may be actually HEARTNG those voices in your head. You make up sources for comments you don't agree with and blame the universes negative energy and all issues that don't end in you getting a government lollipop on Bush.

This tripe is not worth a human response.

Continue your mind meld with the Obama hive!

:tinfoil:
Last edited by ratherfish on Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:30:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby ratherfish » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:27:26

HELLO!

Voices????

Tell Kreutz that his messiah was incapable of negotiating an adequate status of forces agreement, cut his losses appeasing his anti war base adoped the expiration of the previopus agreement then announced it pubically!

HEY TERRORISTS!
THIS IS WHEN WE LEAVE!!!!!!

stupidity! :bangin:
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby Kreutz » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:32:49

ratherfish wrote:HELLO!

Voices????

Tell Kreutz that his messiah was incapable of negotiating an adequate status of forces agreement, cut his losses appeasing his anti war base adoped the expiration of the previopus agreement then announced it pubically!

HEY TERRORISTS!
THIS IS WHEN WE LEAVE!!!!!!

stupidity! :bangin:


Reasoning with someone who is the poster child for forced sterilization benefits neither of us.

May your days be as numerous as your brain cells.

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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby ratherfish » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:39:32

Like all liberals you'd like to be the one to decide who procreates and who doesn't.

Sorry child you're too late!

9 kids, 8 Grandkids and grand pa's proundly counting cause I just met my 5th Granddaughter TODAY!!!!!!!


What an innane little liberal twit you are!

:coffee:
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby gunderwood » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:42:15

ratherfish wrote:9 kids, 8 Grandkids and grand pa's proundly counting cause I just met my 5th Granddaughter TODAY!!!!!!!

Congrats on the 5th! :clap:
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby Taggure » Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:20:19

Hey Mods

How about we make a Thread just for Kreutz and ratherfish so they can continue this battle of wits without disrupting and de-railing the current topic. Please :roll:

thanks
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby Kreutz » Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:26:37

Taggure wrote:Hey Mods

How about we make a Thread just for Kreutz and ratherfish so they can continue this battle of wits without disrupting and de-railing the current topic. Please :roll:

thanks
Vern


Since I scraped that particular turd off my shoe permanently at the last post directed at him, that's actually a really good idea. He'd have it all to himself and yet still find something to bitch about. :hysterical:


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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby Taggure » Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:30:00

Kreutz wrote:
Taggure wrote:Hey Mods

How about we make a Thread just for Kreutz and ratherfish so they can continue this battle of wits without disrupting and de-railing the current topic. Please :roll:

thanks
Vern


Since I scraped that particular turd off my shoe permanently at the last post directed at him, that's actually a really good idea. He'd have it all to himself and yet still find something to bitch about. :hysterical:



:hysterical:
You know I am not trying to be mean, but there have been a lot of interesting post on this thread and I would hate to see it get locked.
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby CCFan » Mon, 20 Feb 2012 19:05:45

Kreutz wrote:You may want to try actually blaming people for things they themselves did. It makes you look slightly less ill informed.

Iraq, like Vietnam is another pointless loss, profitable only for the military industrial complex, commodities/futures traders, and central bankers.

It harbored no 9/11 terrorists, provided none of them (that was Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Egypt-all "allies"), and in a cosmic display of irony the very "political prisoners" held by Saddam were Muslim extremists, which we "liberated" to butcher each other, Iraqi civilians, American and allied forces, and Iraqs ancient Christian population.

We didn't liberate Iraq, we destroyed it, dumped countless lives and money into it....and then left. We didn't even get a t-shirt or a barrel of oil for it...in fact, oil prices have only gone up.

Can't wait to liberate Iran! :hysterical:


Sounds so horrible! We just blowed 'em up and spit 'em out...

Except....

You're whole argument here is they didn't do this or that - but I've yet to see you acknowledge the Kurds, the hundreds of thousands that Saddam killed, etc., - so you've painted a very narrow minded "Since they didn't do anything Bush was warring against, they must've been angels" argument.

I think if you compared the number of lives we dumped into it (as you so eloquently put it) to the number that never returned under Saddam's regime, you might be surprised at the ROI. ( http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html for some numbers to read) Maybe a little more respect for the folks that went over and did what they were told to do is in order.

Also amazingly humorous to me is that you're still stuck on the " In fact, oil prices have only gone up" argument. I heard that day one when all the Bush bashers said it was just about oil. Explain to me again how it was just about oil?
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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby Kreutz » Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:10:07

CCFan wrote:You're whole argument here is they didn't do this or that - but I've yet to see you acknowledge the Kurds, the hundreds of thousands that Saddam killed, etc., - so you've painted a very narrow minded "Since they didn't do anything Bush was warring against, they must've been angels" argument.


I never said anything of the sort. The Kurds (and the Marsh Arabs) were victims of a despot. The Kurds were not entirely innocent either; wherever they go they seem to start trouble. The Marsh Arabs were genuinely victims of Saddams paranoia.

But lets remember two things:

1) Where did he get those weapons with which to commit these crimes? The good ole US of A, so he could gas Iranians in the trenches of the Iran-Iraq war. (And some wonder why the Iranians still have an axe to grind against us?)

2) I am a strict isolationist(think autarky level of isolationism) and generally don't care what happens outside our borders. In fact, meddling in other countries seems to have rather negative repercussions, i.e. see chemical weapon incident above, and 9/11 which was due to the presence of US soldiers in the "Holy Land" of the Kingdom of Saud.

Neither involves Dubya incidentally. Give me some credit; I have a wider view of history than that.

I think if you compared the number of lives we dumped into it (as you so eloquently put it) to the number that never returned under Saddam's regime, you might be surprised at the ROI. ( http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html for some numbers to read) Maybe a little more respect for the folks that went over and did what they were told to do is in order.


ROI is not something I would use to apply widespread death, not very elegant either. People aren't ledger items.

At least I was apt, those lives were wasted like so much thrown into a dump. No one should die a violent death needlessly. Soldiers or civilians, Americans or Iraqis.

The fact things only got worse after the deposition of the Mustachioed One proves at least he kept things stable, and again the primary recipients of his affections were Islamic extremists opposed to his largely secular kleptocracy.

Also amazingly humorous to me is that you're still stuck on the " In fact, oil prices have only gone up" argument. I heard that day one when all the Bush bashers said it was just about oil. Explain to me again how it was just about oil?


Explain to me where I said "it was just about oil"? Oil prices have gone up since then indeed, but that was more a remark on our being the suckiest Empire in history than anything else. Only we can invade a country rich in resource X, spend billions to invade, and then see the price of X skyrocket.

Its because we "liberate", whatever the hell that means. Never mind we don't liberate outside of oil rich nations(we'll get to Laos eventually I guess) but, whatever. Coincidence I guess. :doh:

As I've said before (contrary to what you accuse)if we're gonna be an Empire we should do it right. Which means wholesale confiscating of resources, widespread enslavement, mass executions of natives to be repopulated by colonists; the whole shebang.

Its not just about Dubya, but he will always get the most flak because he continued what his pappy started. Thems the breaks. :coffee:


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Re: Truth, lies and Afghanistan

Postby ratherfish » Tue, 21 Feb 2012 01:26:47

Kreutz wrote:
Taggure wrote:Hey Mods

How about we make a Thread just for Kreutz and ratherfish so they can continue this battle of wits without disrupting and de-railing the current topic. Please :roll:

thanks
Vern


Since I scraped that particular turd off my shoe permanently at the last post directed at him, that's actually a really good idea. He'd have it all to himself and yet still find something to bitch about. :hysterical:


You mean the stearilization comment?

Keep up the abortions, stearilizations, and birth control matras of your hive mind mentality and friend, MY portion of the gene pool is already well on it's way to victory!


If I want kreutzes opinion i'll go to the daily koz and read it for myself.

BTW....#1 LOL

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There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.'
-C. S. Lewis


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