tursiops wrote: That's why the melting of the ice sheets and the sliding into the ocean is a doomsday scenario...
Sorry man, not the way fluid mechanics work.
The ice sheets are already in the ocean; always have been. Whether they are there in a liquid or a solid state has the exact same effect on fluid displacement, namely the oceans will be at the same level they were.
Land-locked glaciers would contribute to a rise in sea-level, but it'd be rather minimal as not all of the run-off would make it to the seas.
The oceans are already huge, a few extra hundred million gallons of water is inconsequential.
No, you've missed the point. the ice sheets are on the land in Greenland and Antarctica, they are not in the water. And you clearly have not looked at the numbers.
But you guys and gals are not interested in facts, so I can't see the point in providing any more.
grumpyMSG wrote:There is no way possible to measure man's contribution to changes to CO2, Methane and the various other gases that make up our atmosphere.
Its inferred from ice core samples. You can can compare the ppm of say, sulfur dioxide in the say, Pleistocene era to those of today. its not exact, but its roughly how comparisons between the past and present are made.
So let me see if I have this right: If you "X" PPM of SO2 in the ice sample from Pleistocene era and you have "Y" PPM of SO2 from a sample that is say 50 years old. You are saying mankind is solely responsible for the difference or Y-X= man's contribution? There are no other possible explanations like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Pinatubo or if you don't trust wikipedia: http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs113-97/
wikipedia wrote:The powerful eruption of such an enormous volume of lava and ash injected significant quantities of aerosols and dust into the stratosphere. Sulfur dioxide oxidised in the atmosphere to produce a haze of sulfuric acid droplets, which gradually spread throughout the stratosphere over the year following the eruption. The injection of aerosols into the stratosphere is thought to have been the largest since the eruption of Krakatoa in 1883, with a total mass of SO2 of about 17 million tons being injected—the largest volume ever recorded by modern instruments.
The eruption had a significant effect on ozone levels in the atmosphere, causing a large increase in the destruction rate of ozone. Ozone levels at mid-latitudes reached their lowest recorded levels, while in the southern hemisphere winter of 1992, the ozone hole over Antarctica reached its largest ever size until then, with the fastest recorded ozone depletion rates. The eruption of Mount Hudson in Chile in August 1991 also contributed to southern hemisphere ozone destruction, with measurements showing a sharp decrease in ozone levels at the tropopause when the aerosol clouds from Pinatubo and Hudson arrived.
Another noticeable effect of the dust in the atmosphere was the appearance of lunar eclipses. Normally even at mid-eclipse, the moon is still visible although much dimmed, but in the year following the Pinatubo eruption, the moon was hardly visible at all during eclipses, due to much greater absorption of sunlight by dust in the atmosphere.
This very large stratospheric injection resulted in a reduction in the normal amount of sunlight reaching the Earth's surface by roughly 10% (see figure). This led to a decrease in northern hemisphere average temperatures of 0.5–0.6 °C (0.9–1.1 °F), and a global fall of about 0.4 °C (0.7 °F).[7][17] At the same time, the temperature in the stratosphere rose to several degrees higher than normal, due to absorption of radiation by the aerosol. The stratospheric cloud from the eruption persisted in the atmosphere for three years after the eruption.
Kreutz wrote:
grumpyMSG wrote:For example Kreutz mentioned factory ranching, but how much methane was given off by the huge herds of buffalo that used to roam this country? They are ruminants like cattle.
Best I could find was from wikipedia (sigh), which says about 1.3-1.5 billion bessies out there, no way the Plains supported even one thousandth of that. Plus we feed em grain, not their natural diet.
As for the cattle, you ought to stick to the city. Most beef cattle are raised on grass, they are finished for last 30 to 90 days on grain to up the fat content (giving the meat it's marbling). Some folks prefer meat that has been on grass right up to the end, it tends to be much leaner. Dairy cattle on the other hand do see some grain, but much of the corn they eat is actually ensilage (corn that has been chopped stalk and all and then fermented).
I am glad you and I see eye to eye on the oceans levels not changing drastically, I am not saying that man does not contribute to global warming, but that there is no real way to measure or estimate mankind's contribution. I don't believe that cataclysmic change will be predictable, but a stacking of several events that will increase the magnitude of the events, like the combination of the glacier melting and cooling Eyjafjallajökull, the Iceland volcano and the jet stream at the time of the eruption meaning the ash had a high glass content and was carried directly toward Europe or the effect of Pinatubo erupting while there was a typhoon hitting the island. Of course there is always the possibility of a BFR (Big F-in' Rock) falling from space and denting the planet... Al Gore's committee at work:
Of course it is in the last place you looked, your not going to keep looking for something after you've found it.
tursiops wrote:No, you've missed the point. the ice sheets are on the land in Greenland and Antarctica, they are not in the water. And you clearly have not looked at the numbers.
But you guys and gals are not interested in facts, so I can't see the point in providing any more.
Looks like the Ross ice shelf (the big daddy of Antarctic shelves) is in the water to me:
Is the picture somehow lying?
I dont have an agenda here, its just science. As I said I am an environmentalist, but reality must trump hysteria.
So let me see if I have this right: If you "X" PPM of SO2 in the ice sample from Pleistocene era and you have "Y" PPM of SO2 from a sample that is say 50 years old. You are saying mankind is solely responsible for the difference or Y-X= man's contribution? There are no other possible explanations like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Pinatubo or if you don't trust wikipedia: http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs113-97/
Ahhh, dude, I picked a completely random element and era! Was just trying to point out how we can infer (never be 100% certain) comparisons from ice cores!
I am acutely aware of volcanic eruptions releasing massive amounts of SO2; in fact, sulfur dioxide may be the answer to cooling the earth...and the fun fact there is burning coal releases SO2...downside of course is acid rain (theres never a magic bullet).
IMO its ultimate (and typical) human hubris to think we can change the climate significantly. Deforestation and desertification can be laid at our feet, yes. The idea the piddling amounts of CO2 our industries release...no.
So rattle my bones all over the stones, I'm only a beggar-man whom nobody owns. Oh, see how words as old as sin, fit me like a glove.
Bottom line is we can NEVER EVER bend to the will of environmentalist on this issues. Reason is quite simple. If there is wide spread acceptance of the so called "facts" it wont be long until "they" throw in the "facts" that human beings emit far too much greenhouse gas. Logically follows some twit with alot of money and a "take over the planet" agenda will then have them throw in population control or outright eradication merely to "save" the planet.
And, if any of you morons who think this is some tin foil hat idea you are wrong. Some other "facts" out there too. A very few very rich people want all the resources (air, food, clean water, etc) all to themselves and their descendants...what better way to set that up. This way would be far better than starting a huge war that might unleash nukes. Just have the idiots kill a few billion peons all in the name of some half baked "facts." Then have your private little army go kill the idiots that are left or use them as slave labor.
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...
Kreutz wrote:I am acutely aware of volcanic eruptions releasing massive amounts of SO2; in fact, sulfur dioxide may be the answer to cooling the earth...and the fun fact there is burning coal releases SO2...downside of course is acid rain (theres never a magic bullet).
IMO its ultimate (and typical) human hubris to think we can change the climate significantly. Deforestation and desertification can be laid at our feet, yes. The idea the piddling amounts of CO2 our industries release...no.
No free lunch in this world! You want to defend yourself in a time of trouble--you run the risk of you screwing up someday and having an negligent discharge. Want to vaccinate your kids against disease--run the risk of a reaction to the vaccines. Want to grow a garden--you might have a blight and have your tomato crop decimated no matter how much you spent on it. Want to cool the world down--likely create acid rain. That is life.
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."
When somebody tells me that the debate is over, that means that they admit defeat. When somebody tells me that something is a fact, when it's been proven that their opinion is based on tainted evidence, I say "follow the money".
Sensai wrote:When somebody tells me that the debate is over, that means that they admit defeat. When somebody tells me that something is a fact, when it's been proven that their opinion is based on tainted evidence, I say "follow the money".
Yes, follow the money. But the money dealt with by "players" like Gore is peanuts compared to the handful of super wealthy around the globe. They are the ones pulling the string. They want future generations to be able to follow their money, hence IMHO they are behind this nonsense of man made global warming and anyone spouting the rhetoric is helping them...
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...
Jungles and Swamps are for rednecks, hillbillies, and natives.
Rainforest and Wetlands are for urban types who occasionally go out for a weekend...In their Land Rover, or Subaru's... wearing gear they got from REI...probably Columbia, or North Face... sipping a latte ...
I like Jungle, I like Swamps, I like being in the thick... where it's so dense, you don't run into "outdoor enthusiasts", or "earth-ers"... I'm a conservationist, not an environmentalist... I believe we're a virus, and one day, we're gonna get crushed by God, and hopefully.... We shall see who is the strong, and who is the weak.
Sensai wrote:When somebody tells me that the debate is over, that means that they admit defeat. When somebody tells me that something is a fact, when it's been proven that their opinion is based on tainted evidence, I say "follow the money".
Yes, follow the money. But the money dealt with by "players" like Gore is peanuts compared to the handful of super wealthy around the globe. They are the ones pulling the string. They want future generations to be able to follow their money, hence IMHO they are behind this nonsense of man made global warming and anyone spouting the rhetoric is helping them...
Sensai wrote:When somebody tells me that the debate is over, that means that they admit defeat. When somebody tells me that something is a fact, when it's been proven that their opinion is based on tainted evidence, I say "follow the money".
Yes, follow the money. But the money dealt with by "players" like Gore is peanuts compared to the handful of super wealthy around the globe. They are the ones pulling the string. They want future generations to be able to follow their money, hence IMHO they are behind this nonsense of man made global warming and anyone spouting the rhetoric is helping them...
Gee, what a coincidence...in my honest and professional opinion the whole global warming caused by man that is going to destroy the world is not even worthy of a tin foil hat and even dumber that something homer simpson would devise...
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...
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