Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

by **mk4** » Wed, 04 Apr 2012 22:19:03

Kreutz wrote:We have a different worldview. I think if something is as sick as this country it needs to be allowed to die as quickly as possible; not strung along for a few more years.

Why delay the inevitable?

Obama part deux will be the last nail ensuring the end much sooner than later.

Whats so bad about just getting it over with? That debts gonna grow exponentially under Obama and only slightly less so under Romney; what difference does it make? Just get it over with!

"different worldview"? that's the understatement of the millennium!
how about a different universe view! sheesh!
do you honestly believe what you're saying?!?

following the country's "death", what is your vision of of the state of this land? anarchy? dismal socialism/marxism? what are you prepared to do in the event of this country's "death"? roll over and die? leave?

if i recall, you just had a new baby... how can you not fight with every ounce of your strength and your every breath to protect your family from the mayhem and anarchy that might ensue from a collapse of this republic? what alternate system do you think would offer a better future for your children? please enlighten. i understand the concept of thinking about the long-term future our children face, but having children in the here-and-now means needing to operate in the here-and-now, also. we don't have the intellectual luxury of saying "who cares? wtf... it's sick, let it die."

good lord, man...

by **Diomed** » Wed, 04 Apr 2012 23:56:21

mk4 wrote:if i recall, you just had a new baby... how can you not fight with every ounce of your strength and your every breath to protect your family from the mayhem and anarchy that might ensue from a collapse of this republic? what alternate system do you think would offer a better future for your children? please enlighten. i understand the concept of thinking about the long-term future our children face, but having children in the here-and-now means needing to operate in the here-and-now, also. we don't have the intellectual luxury of saying "who cares? wtf... it's sick, let it die."

good lord, man...

by **mk4** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 00:44:22

@Diomed...
i believe that you've misinterpreted my comments about the care and future of our families. i'm in no way speaking of the nanny state's wringing of hands using the argument of "the children", in the abstract, to garner support. i'm speaking of *personal responsibility* to one's dependent family.

a personal example... i carry a firearm every day, everywhere i go, alone or with my family. while i know that i'm exercising my 2A rights, and it's critical to protecting the right, that's not my prime directive. i carry because i will not delegate my responsibilities of defense of self and family to anyone else, least of all the nanny state that some politicians and bureaucrats would have us believe is the best for us. nope, no way. i, personally, will do the things in the here-and-now that i think are important to the care and well-being of my family.

i honestly believe that it's completely disingenuous to say "just let it all die and to heck with any consequences". nobody ever said the system we have now is perfect, but, imho, it's worth fighting to fix it. i don't think there's another government system on the planet that is better than ours, or, at least, that has that potential to be better.

by **Kreutz** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 06:59:27

mk4 wrote:"different worldview"? that's the understatement of the millennium!
how about a different universe view! sheesh!
do you honestly believe what you're saying?!?

Um, yes?

following the country's "death", what is your vision of of the state of this land? anarchy? dismal socialism/marxism? what are you prepared to do in the event of this country's "death"? roll over and die? leave?

Oh my God! If we rebel against King George, what will happen? Will brigands roam our dirt streets? How will we function without a government?

Change can be rough, but we had a good run for awhile after the initial shock of separation from the Empire. Honestly, if you people were in charge back then I can imagine we'd still be using shillings and shunning dentistry.

if i recall, you just had a new baby... how can you not fight with every ounce of your strength and your every breath to protect your family from the mayhem and anarchy that might ensue from a collapse of this republic? what alternate system do you think would offer a better future for your children? please enlighten. i understand the concept of thinking about the long-term future our children face, but having children in the here-and-now means needing to operate in the here-and-now, also. we don't have the intellectual luxury of saying "who cares? wtf... it's sick, let it die."

good lord, man...

I'd be more interested to know how you'd keep this going another generation or two. The Federal Reserve is buying something to the tune of 61% of Treasury Debt...its an ouroboros (pictured below) now.

How is that sustainable?

You can throw all the money and meds at a terminally ill patient, but the outcome is always the same.

by **Kreutz** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 07:01:39

mk4 wrote:i honestly believe that it's completely disingenuous to say "just let it all die and to heck with any consequences". nobody ever said the system we have now is perfect, but, imho, it's worth fighting to fix it. i don't think there's another government system on the planet that is better than ours, or, at least, that has that potential to be better.

Or we could just reform the basic system we have now without all the social programs and government agencies that grew in the 20th century. Its the only way to run a relatively debt free country.

by **Kreutz** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 07:03:35

allingeneral wrote:Ah - the old Obamacare "Death pill". Don't try to save this old country - it's not worth the cost of surgery or rehabilitation. Just give it another dose of Obama and let it die.

Man...You're sick. You've got it bad.

If you owed 15 trillion on a house would you try and pay it off and stave off the inevitable foreclosure or just walk away and let it rot?

Torching it for the insurance alas, is not an option.

by **Kreutz** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 07:15:55

mamabearCali wrote:You know I will take the difficult and imperfect gov't we have right now for the danger, uncertainty, and almost inevitable tyranny that is likely to occur when this great country sees it's last days. Do not hasten that day.

Ther is no where left to run to. If we fail here the light of freedom could easily fade out. I keep hope for my children that freedom just might if we work very hard exist for them. Why should two generations snuff out the light of freedom for all who are to come?

So I say do not hasten the death of this great American experiment.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

I am puzzled by the devotion everyone here is suddenly showing to the federal government.

Anarchy? There is still 50 states to govern affairs and keep order. Some of the smarter ones have provisions to generate their own currency in the event of a US default.

The FedGov is a giant bloated bureaucracy that is unsustainable; thats a fact. We have much higher per capita debt loads than Greece did, with no European Central Bank to bail us out.

The question is do you dread the inevitable or accept it?

Again, very puzzled by the sudden love for federalism here. Thats supposed to be my thing.

by **allingeneral** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 07:22:29

Kreutz wrote:
allingeneral wrote:Ah - the old Obamacare "Death pill". Don't try to save this old country - it's not worth the cost of surgery or rehabilitation. Just give it another dose of Obama and let it die.

Man...You're sick. You've got it bad.

If you owed 15 trillion on a house would you try and pay it off and stave off the inevitable foreclosure or just walk away and let it rot?

Torching it for the insurance alas, is not an option.

I'm actually tens of thousands of dollars upside-down on my house right now and would love to move to a new house. I've (very briefly) considered a short sale or walking away - but the hit to my credit and to my own ego would be too great. I cannot allow myself to fail, and I am fighting and clawing to figure out how to get back on an even keel with my mortgage.

So, all you did was prove my point by making that statement.

by **allingeneral** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 07:27:42

Kreutz wrote:
mk4 wrote:i honestly believe that it's completely disingenuous to say "just let it all die and to heck with any consequences". nobody ever said the system we have now is perfect, but, imho, it's worth fighting to fix it. i don't think there's another government system on the planet that is better than ours, or, at least, that has that potential to be better.

Or we could just reform the basic system we have now without all the social programs and government agencies that grew in the 20th century. Its the only way to run a relatively debt free country.

You are making sense here. Do you feel alright?

This is exactly the fight that needs to be fought. Unfortunately, the corruption in our government won't ever let this happen. There aren't enough politicians in office today who have the balls to make these tough decisions. That's what elections are for, as corruption can only be cleaned up by replacing it, and this line of thinking gives credence to those who say "Throw them all out and start over".

by **VBshooter** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 08:12:04

Its going to take a much stronger commitment of The People like ourselves to keep those damn politicians in line. We need to make them aware that we are awake and paying very close attention to what they do... You are 100 correct about their not being enough with balls to act.... As long as there are Pelosis', Clyburgs",Hoyers', and the other political roach waste it is going to be an uphill battle.. We cannot afford to lose!!!

by **mk4** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 09:17:23

Kreutz wrote:
mk4 wrote:i honestly believe that it's completely disingenuous to say "just let it all die and to heck with any consequences". nobody ever said the system we have now is perfect, but, imho, it's worth fighting to fix it. i don't think there's another government system on the planet that is better than ours, or, at least, that has that potential to be better.

Or we could just reform the basic system we have now without all the social programs and government agencies that grew in the 20th century. Its the only way to run a relatively debt free country.

so you agree with me, now?
i said we've got to fight to fix it. your words here are "reform" it. that's a lot different than "let it die".

i want the constitutional republic, not the social democracy/nanny state.

by **dorminWS** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 10:06:09

@ Kreutz:
The problem with just letting the USA die and starting all over is that if we had any Jeffersons, Madisons or Washingtons around we wouldn't be in this mess to start with, now, would we?

And yes, you did get on track with the notion of killing the entitlements. Back on your meds, are you? :hysterical:

@mk4:
I wish you wouldn't refer to allingeneral as AIG. Allingeneral seems to be a pretty good feller. AIG is the name that the biggest SOBs in the insurance business go by. I respectfully suggest you ought not do the boy that way.

by **mk4** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 10:08:29

dorminWS wrote:@mk4:
I wish you wouldn't refer to allingeneral as AIG. Allingeneral seems to be a pretty good feller. AIG is the name that the biggest SOBs in the insurance business go by. I respectfully suggest you ought not do the boy that way.

noted, dorminWS. no offense or connection meant to be implied. won't happen again.

sorry, Allingeneral.

by **ratherfish** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 11:21:44

You all take kreutz the hyper-literate liberal shill far too deeply.

His personal finances stand to benefit greatly... From Obamacareless!

He IS the Obama electorate. "Give me Obama money" is all that seems to motivate.

Give me free stuff and a check. He could care less about this great country or it's future. Sure he'll appear reasonable when in a corner to gather the support of reasoning humans but it's an act.

The rest of the rhetoric is to enflame those with souls still under their own control. I've counted about 3 separate personalities so far, thats not including the group at city data.

by **mamabearCali** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 11:59:08

Kreutz wrote:I am puzzled by the devotion everyone here is suddenly showing to the federal government.

Anarchy? There is still 50 states to govern affairs and keep order. Some of the smarter ones have provisions to generate their own currency in the event of a US default.

The FedGov is a giant bloated bureaucracy that is unsustainable; thats a fact. We have much higher per capita debt loads than Greece did, with no European Central Bank to bail us out.

The question is do you dread the inevitable or accept it?

Again, very puzzled by the sudden love for federalism here. Thats supposed to be my thing.

I have great affection for our system of gov't. The fact that we have a standard (US constitution) that every law in the US is supposed to conform to is an amazing thing. Where we have gone wrong is when we have drifted from that standard. Lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Rather lets work towards getting ourselves back to where we are supposed to be.

by **allingeneral** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:58:17

mk4 wrote:
dorminWS wrote:@mk4:
I wish you wouldn't refer to allingeneral as AIG. Allingeneral seems to be a pretty good feller. AIG is the name that the biggest SOBs in the insurance business go by. I respectfully suggest you ought not do the boy that way.

noted, dorminWS. no offense or connection meant to be implied. won't happen again.

sorry, Allingeneral.

LOL You know...I started my company in 2005...not long before the whole AIG insurance fiasco started. So, now I'm stuck with it, and although it may hurt my business from time to time when people wonder if there's a relation between myself and AIG insurance, I still refer to my first retail website as "AIG Tactical".

by **Kreutz** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 14:37:58

allingeneral wrote:You are making sense here. Do you feel alright?

This is exactly the fight that needs to be fought. Unfortunately, the corruption in our government won't ever let this happen. There aren't enough politicians in office today who have the balls to make these tough decisions. That's what elections are for, as corruption can only be cleaned up by replacing it, and this line of thinking gives credence to those who say "Throw them all out and start over".

How do you propose to do this without a "do over" in the framework of the current system and its myriad mandates, agencies, and the fact the FedGov is the single largest employer in the country?

Even if there really was a true budget hawk elected to the Presidency (and Romney he is not) the debt will keep growing. The only solution if massive spending cuts and massive tax hikes to really stave off collapse for a significant enough amount of time.

Not gonna happen, so, we continue towards insolvency. I'm telling you, a "fresh start" would be a good thing, and in order for that to happen the current system has to collapse so it can be replaced. Sooner is better than later I think, you disagree, which is fine by me.

by **dorminWS** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 14:45:07

Kreutz wrote:

How do you propose to do this without a "do over" in the framework of the current system and its myriad mandates, agencies, and the fact the FedGov is the single largest employer in the country?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I keep telling you that employment at public expense by the government that produces nothing and in fact either impedes or completely prevents PRODUCTIVE employment of others by the private sector is of value only to those employed and those government bloodsuckers who employ them. Put them on unemployment based upon the average annual wage in the USA (NOT their obscenely bloated government wages) and give them until it runs out to get a REAL job. Oh, and tell each and every one of them, "Welcome to real real world, you bureaucratic parasite."

by **Kreutz** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 14:46:42

mk4 wrote:so you agree with me, now?
i said we've got to fight to fix it. your words here are "reform" it. that's a lot different than "let it die".

i want the constitutional republic, not the social democracy/nanny state.

I meant "reform" in a literal sense, like "rebuild" or "refashion". After the current system goes belly up/dies.

You cannot "reform" in the sense of change the system in its current calcified state. If it could be done it would have happened already. :whistle:

DorminWS wrote:The problem with just letting the USA die and starting all over is that if we had any Jeffersons, Madisons or Washingtons around we wouldn't be in this mess to start with, now, would we?

We have living people who "get it" in regards to what those men tried to accomplish so we don't need to dig their corpses up or clone them.

Plenty of capable people around now who can be trusted to effectively lead instead of the whores in DC.

And yes, you did get on track with the notion of killing the entitlements. Back on your meds, are you?

[/quote]

I'm personally OK with entitlements if the structure is in place to pay for them, which isn't the case in the US. We just kick the can down the road to burden future generations with current debt.

As for meds, I wish, got any?

by **ratherfish** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 14:49:26

Fine....throw feces bombs and cash your obamacareless paycheck.

The people that gave you this fine republic were a minority. And a minority of us will gladly save it. I swore an oath to defend the constitution. I don't remember taking it back.

"I'm personally OK with entitlements "

Code for I stand to make a killing off Obamacare...