Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

We knew that this was coming and Harry Reid and other yoyo;s out to destroy yhr country would bring this turkey out of hiding and attempt to pass it...The DREAM ACt is an insult to the taxpayers and turns citizenship into a freaking free for all with no work involved to earn it,,,,, This link is a written reply to Webb and Warner to oppose the acts S3962 and S3963 ,,All you gotta do is fill it in and hit send.....http://www.votervoice.net/core.aspx?aid=972&issueid=23131&atid=17920&siteid=0&app=GAC&isvisited=true

I have a DREAM, too...that one day the members of the electorate* will wake up and judge political candidates not by the letter by their names, but by the content of their character.

*electorate = us, the voters

Thank you for the link, Spence. Emails sent!

But there are those who were brought here as a child and they have no responability for the actions there parent did when they were brought over here and this dream act is for people like that who have been here all there life and are trying nothing more but to live the American dream, I have a friend who was brought into the states when they were 1 an have since graduated which school and at no fault of there own have they broken any laws because there parent brought them here, the dream act is designed to benefit cases like these

And they are more than welcome to apply for and wait their turn to obtain citizenship in this country, These 2 bills are nothing more than political grandstanding in an attempt to cozy up to the latino vote in upcoming elections.. The costs of them will be put upon the taxpayers and that is NOT right. Here are a few reasons to not want the Dream Act to be passed.


1) The DREAM Act Is NOT Limited to Children, And It Will Be Funded On the Backs Of Hard Working, Law-Abiding Americans
2) The DREAM Act PROVIDES SAFE HARBOR FOR ANY ALIEN, Including Criminals, From Being Removed or Deported If They Simply Submit An Application
3) Estimates Suggest That At Least 2.1 Million Illegal Aliens Will Be Eligible For the DREAM Act Amnesty.
4) Illegal Aliens Will Get In-State Tuition Benefits
5) The DREAM Act Does Not Require That An Illegal Alien Finish Any Type of Degree
6) The DREAM Act does not require that an illegal alien serve in the military as a condition for amnesty, and There is ALREADY A Legal Process In Place For Illegal 7) Aliens to Obtain U.S. Citizenship Through Military Service
Despite Their Current Illegal Status, DREAM Act Aliens Will Be Given All The Rights That Legal Immigrants Receive—Including The Legal Right To Sponsor Their Parents and Extended Family Members For Immigration
9) Current Illegal Aliens Will Get Federal Student Loans, Federal Work Study Programs, and Other Forms of Federal Financial Aid

Shakes out to be a hell of a lot more than just offering citizenship to "children" We don;t need it!

VBshooter and I have disagreed on other political points and no doubt will in the future, but on this one I agree with him. The DREAM act is not good for this country and must remain just a "DREAM", not reality.

I went to high school with immigrant students, both legally here and otherwise, who wanted to stay and become citizens. I'm all for that...but there is a process in place for that to happen, and it must be followed. Yes, even in cases like zombiehunter's friend. He needs to go through the process like everyone else who wants to emigrate here legally is expected to.

zombiehunter wrote:But there are those who were brought here as a child and they have no responability for the actions there parent did when they were brought over here and this dream act is for people like that who have been here all there life and are trying nothing more but to live the American dream, I have a friend who was brought into the states when they were 1 an have since graduated which school and at no fault of there own have they broken any laws because there parent brought them here, the dream act is designed to benefit cases like these

Overall I think cases like this show why we do have a problem, yes your pal is blameless, but if we let him slide, we have to let everyone else in the present and future slide too.

Again, like Cowboy I would probably almost never agree with VBshooter politically but this is just another foot in the door towards amnesty (you know, like that Reagan fellow gave out...had to get a dig in at him ), and our immigration policy is spineless enough as is.

Well, Gee fella's Thanks!!

Some more of the "good"things " this disaster could bring down on us if this abomination and insult to taxpayers was to pass,,,,,,

DREAM Act Would Cost Taxpayers $6.2 Billion Per Year, Group Says

"A group advocating for tighter immigration laws estimates that a hotly debated bill that would give tens of thousands of illegal immigrants who attend college or join the military a path to legal status would cost taxpayers $6.2 billion a year and "crowd out" U.S. students in the classroom."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/02/dream-act-cost-taxpayers-billion-year-group-says/#ixzz172YHk5Vz

We definitley do not need this political disaster to go through....As a note of interest ,,Our two Obama ass kissers have been and are in favor of this POS since its inception.... Another item on a long list of things to vote both of em out in 2012 (Webb) and 2014(Warner),,,THese bleeding heart irresponsible bills may make people feel good but they are as unneeded as anything ever put forth by the idiots in DC,,,No party needed here,They are both idiot filled and in need of a serious enema to flush out the crap.

Kreutz wrote:Overall I think cases like this show why we do have a problem, yes your pal is blameless, but if we let him slide, we have to let everyone else in the present and future slide too.

Again, like Cowboy I would probably almost never agree with VBshooter politically but this is just another foot in the door towards amnesty (you know, like that Reagan fellow gave out...had to get a dig in at him ), and our immigration policy is spineless enough as is.

Careful Kreutz, your conservatism is showing!

There may be some hope for you yet!

Yarddawg wrote:

Kreutz wrote:Overall I think cases like this show why we do have a problem, yes your pal is blameless, but if we let him slide, we have to let everyone else in the present and future slide too.

Again, like Cowboy I would probably almost never agree with VBshooter politically but this is just another foot in the door towards amnesty (you know, like that Reagan fellow gave out...had to get a dig in at him ), and our immigration policy is spineless enough as is.

Careful Kreutz, your conservatism is showing!

There may be some hope for you yet!

"Conservatism" eh? Lets not forget Saint Reagan gave them all blanket amnesty, so I wouldn't frame it that way.

In any event, its not a "conservative" or "liberal" issue anyway. Nowadays only the far right and far left even seem to want the concept of nations and borders to exist...this free trade/globalism crap will be death of everyone.

Only two kinds of people want unchecked illegal immigration to continue:

1) the capitalists who profit off of their labor

and

2) "social engineers" who wish to irrevocably alter the demographics of this country.

I am opposed to the illegal immigration because they take faaaaaaaaaaaaar more than they put in (essentially they just pay sales taxes) and mock our laws (and by extension us) by their presence.

Excellent choice...Social Engineers are one dangerous group and sadly we have a whole lot of them ( far too many) in politics and an even larger group that listens to them and agrees because they think it;s the right or fair thing to do.. They need to learn that life just isn't always fair and sometimes people get left out for a reason.......These are the ones that just don;t seem to get or see the irrepairable damage this unchecked social experimentation can and will do....Frankly I don;t want to pay for something that a citizen isn't eligible to benefit by but an illegal will,... Nope., can't and won;t get behind it!

Kreutz wrote:

Yarddawg wrote:

Kreutz wrote:Overall I think cases like this show why we do have a problem, yes your pal is blameless, but if we let him slide, we have to let everyone else in the present and future slide too.

Again, like Cowboy I would probably almost never agree with VBshooter politically but this is just another foot in the door towards amnesty (you know, like that Reagan fellow gave out...had to get a dig in at him ), and our immigration policy is spineless enough as is.

Careful Kreutz, your conservatism is showing!

There may be some hope for you yet!

"Conservatism" eh? Lets not forget Saint Reagan gave them all blanket amnesty, so I wouldn't frame it that way.

In any event, its not a "conservative" or "liberal" issue anyway. Nowadays only the far right and far left even seem to want the concept of nations and borders to exist...this free trade/globalism crap will be death of everyone.

Only two kinds of people want unchecked illegal immigration to continue:

1) the capitalists who profit off of their labor

and

2) "social engineers" who wish to irrevocably alter the demographics of this country.

I am opposed to the illegal immigration because they take faaaaaaaaaaaaar more than they put in (essentially they just pay sales taxes) and mock our laws (and by extension us) by their presence.

You are mixing to different issues. Free trade has nothing to do with amnesty. One of the primary purposes of the federal government was to ensure open and free trade between the states because under the Articles of Confederacy, tariffs and regulations were hindering economic activity.

If it was such a good idea for you and I to trade freely, our cities to trade freely, our counties, and even our states, why does it become a bad thing when two countries trade freely? Furthermore, if the people are actually free, why is the federal government telling them who they can trade with and how? The interstate commerce clause was added to the Constitution to prevent governments from enacting barriers to trade between free people, not to justify them.

The real issue with most "globalization" and "free trade" agreements is that they aren't really free trade at all. Erecting a regulatory and tariff structure isn't free trade, it is government managed trade. The "free trade" agreements are anything but actual free trade and yes, they are causing more harm than good.

gunderwood wrote:You are mixing to different issues. Free trade has nothing to do with amnesty. One of the primary purposes of the federal government was to ensure open and free trade between the states because under the Articles of Confederacy, tariffs and regulations were hindering economic activity.

If it was such a good idea for you and I to trade freely, our cities to trade freely, our counties, and even our states, why does it become a bad thing when two countries trade freely? Furthermore, if the people are actually free, why is the federal government telling them who they can trade with and how? The interstate commerce clause was added to the Constitution to prevent governments from enacting barriers to trade between free people, not to justify them.

The real issue with most "globalization" and "free trade" agreements is that they aren't really free trade at all. Erecting a regulatory and tariff structure isn't free trade, it is government managed trade. The "free trade" agreements are anything but actual free trade and yes, they are causing more harm than good.

I did not think it necessary to specify I meant free trade on a global scale will be the death of us. Interstate commerce was never the problem, nor should it be one.

Before the Income Tax Act, our government was funded largely through tariffs, a system that sounds good to me. China would have an apoplectic fit.

VBshooter wrote:Excellent choice...Social Engineers are one dangerous group and sadly we have a whole lot of them ( far too many) in politics and an even larger group that listens to them and agrees because they think it;s the right or fair thing to do.. They need to learn that life just isn't always fair and sometimes people get left out for a reason.......These are the ones that just don;t seem to get or see the irrepairable damage this unchecked social experimentation can and will do....Frankly I don;t want to pay for something that a citizen isn't eligible to benefit by but an illegal will,... Nope., can't and won;t get behind it!

And what about the capitalists that Kreutz also mentioned who profit off of their labor? Is that considered "OK" here somehow?

I didn't realize my posting had to meet some form of all inclusive liberal criteria.. So the the capitialists were not what I decided to post about ,and as of posting,, Don;t Give one or care about,,But if you're so concerned that I left them out of the dodge ball game at recess. Please feel free to post about them, It;'s a big board with a lot of other links to look at and read.....

VBshooter wrote:I didn't realize my posting had to meet some form of all inclusive liberal criteria.. So the the capitialists were not what I decided to post about ,and as of posting,, Don;t Give one or care about,,But if you're so concerned that I left them out of the dodge ball game at recess. Please feel free to post about them, It;'s a big board with a lot of other links to look at and read.....

Indeed Spence...notwithstanding the fact that the DREAM act is a step towards amnesty - which I do not agree with - IMHO its criminal that Reid is pushing this along with other moronic legislation (legalizing online gambling) at a time when critical things need to be done...

1. Expiration of Bush tax cuts
2. Funding the federal government (not that I care about anybody except DOD)
3. making sure the lackeys who lost their job clean out their desks...

Reid is a tired Old Man who needs to be put out to pasture ,, Sadly the SOB and others like him somehow BS'd their way back into the Senate to wreak havoc on the American people.... You are correct in the criminal description ,,You;ve noticed as I have that they always want more while giving nothing. A few good ideas would be to; Lay off several thousand unneeded federal workers , end all entitilements that are nothing more than PC bullsh** for starters, We know what their target audience is and they are as much of a problem as the morons they elect.. Hopefully next cycle we can elect some decent Senators that can put some responsibility and restraint back into the office...... We cannot allow the Reids and Pelosi's to continue on this PC driven path that will sink this country into permanent cesspool status if we don;t stop it soon.

Kreutz wrote:

gunderwood wrote:You are mixing to different issues. Free trade has nothing to do with amnesty. One of the primary purposes of the federal government was to ensure open and free trade between the states because under the Articles of Confederacy, tariffs and regulations were hindering economic activity.

If it was such a good idea for you and I to trade freely, our cities to trade freely, our counties, and even our states, why does it become a bad thing when two countries trade freely? Furthermore, if the people are actually free, why is the federal government telling them who they can trade with and how? The interstate commerce clause was added to the Constitution to prevent governments from enacting barriers to trade between free people, not to justify them.

The real issue with most "globalization" and "free trade" agreements is that they aren't really free trade at all. Erecting a regulatory and tariff structure isn't free trade, it is government managed trade. The "free trade" agreements are anything but actual free trade and yes, they are causing more harm than good.

I did not think it necessary to specify I meant free trade on a global scale will be the death of us. Interstate commerce was never the problem, nor should it be one.

You ignored the question. Why is free trade good between states and bad between countries? After all, the States were technically their own counties at that point. The protectionists are always doing a lot of hand waving and fear mongering about damages, but I've never seen a good logical argument for the idea. Somehow as the US (or any other country grows) the good free trade limits scale with it. The US is 300M people now and free trade beyond that is bad or so the protectionists claim. However, when the US hits 500M people, the good free trade limit will be 500M. In short, the protectionists don't understand trade and how it works.

Kreutz wrote:Before the Income Tax Act, our government was funded largely through tariffs, a system that sounds good to me. China would have an apoplectic fit.

Yes, but more correct term is excise tax as many of your "tariffs" were applied to production both inside and outside the US. E.g. a gasoline excise tax is levied on all gasoline regardless of origin, while a tariff simply increases the cost of the gasoline which was imported.

No, China would not have a fit if we returned to similar levels before the protectionists got a hold of the tariff taxes, but the federal government would shrink by no less than an order of magnitude. The tariff rates were relatively low and the federal government was small. If we tried to fund the current federal government with tariffs it would be economic ruin for us...heck, funding it in any manner is proving to be economic ruin.

OK ,yesterday, in the House the Dream Act passed along party lines opening the door for a bunch of illegals to get a bunch of freebies on the taxpayers backs while making for a more permanent amnesty attempt later, while attempting to raise Obamas reelction chances in 2012. Much like the scandulous Pigford measure that is handing money out to any black person that claims to be a farmer with no checking or proof,Obama of course claims that this BS bill is the "right" thing to do...Now where have we heard that garbage before? Oh yeah every time the BoneHead opens his mouth.

House passes "Dream Act" immigration bill

The "Dream Act" passed by 216-198 after sometimes heated debate. The Senate is scheduled to vote on Thursday on whether to begin debate on a slightly different version of the bill. It appears unlikely backers will win the 60 votes needed in the 100-member chamber to advance the measure.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_usa_congress_immigration

Let's hope that cooler heads prevail in the Senate and this POS dies the death it deserves and never sees the light of day again, It is nothig more than more of Obama reaching out to a base of entitilement seeking groups that he is praying can help him keep from being drop kicked out of DC in 2012..... I doubt he really gives a rats ass about these illegals unless their community has something for him to use,,, Let;s make his pool of assets smaller.. No To the Dream Act.