Today's NRA-ILA Alert

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Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby kkinderen » Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:15:44

I need a little help in understanding. I'm most definitely pro-gun, proud owner of some nice (=useful and fun) pieces and want to support pro-gun legislation while opposing anti-gun legislation. So give me a bit of a break with this.

The alert asks me to send a note to Senator Mark Obenshain (R-26) in support of a number of bills. So far so good. But the alert wants me to OPPOSE Senate Bills 39, 287 and 520. Here where I run into problems.

Senate Bill 39: Sponsored by anti-gun Senator David Marsden (D-37), SB 39 requires that a criminal history record check be performed on the prospective transferee before any firearms transfer at a gun show.

Is this the same check I have to go through when I purchase from a dealer or when I purchase online and have it shipped to an ffl? If so, what's the problem? I'm already doing this for other methods of purchase.

Senate Bill 520: Sponsored by anti-gun Senator Don McEachin (D-9), SB 520 would impose “universal background check” through gun dealers for firearm transfers by criminalizing the private transfer of firearms outside of immediate family members, making it a Class 2 misdemeanor for a person who is not a licensed dealer to sell, rent, trade or transfer a firearm to any other person who is not a licensed dealer.

Basically the same question. If I buy a gun from out of state I have to go through an ffl. Why would it be any different in state? Guy up the street wants to sell me a gun, we jump in the truck, go to the gun shop, fill out some paperwork and pay $25. I think that ain't so bad.

287 is bs and easy to oppose.

What is the key point of opposition in relation to the 2nd Amendment? That it expands on an already unconstitutional infringement of my rights or is there something deeper I'm missing?

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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby allingeneral » Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:47:17

Basically, both of those bills make it illegal for me to sell you one of my firearms privately - or for us to trade guns to round out our collections. It would make all transfers of firearms require an FFL in order to be legal.
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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby Quigley » Tue, 21 Jan 2014 23:11:36

It's basically a universal gun registration that will allow the govt to track every legal gun sale. The govt has no right to this info.


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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby kkinderen » Tue, 21 Jan 2014 23:27:29

Allingeneral I understand what you are saying. To sell me a gun we would get an ffl involved. We already do this for out of state and gun shop purchases. I find it an inconvenience but otherwise I'm not sure why I'd object.

Quigley, if I buy a gun from a local dealer he must run that background check on me. Is that universal gun registration? Are these bills just an attempt to expand on gun registration already in place?

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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby allingeneral » Tue, 21 Jan 2014 23:39:14

Kevin - as I see it, it's just another intrusion into my private affairs. If I want to sell my truck, I don't have to ask the government's permission. Why? Because it's mine - and I'll dispose of it as I see fit. The same is true for any of my firearms.
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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby MarcSpaz » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 02:21:42

Here is a quick breakdown of what is going on...

The Elite ruling class has lost sight of the fact that this is The United States of America and we are a government for the People, by the People. There is not supposed to be an Elite ruling class.

Federal statutory law says that no government agency is permitted to keep a copy of any firearm transactions for longer than 30 days. To get around this, the BATFE (formally ATF) passed a rule that all commercial FFL sales and transfers must be recorded and stored for a period of not LESS than 20 years. The elite ruling class has now effectively circumvented the federal law by making the private businesses host there registry of gun owners.

The people being armed is a constitutional right because our founding fathers knew someday our country would fall from within, at the hand of the corrupt, via an elite ruling class.

The founding fathers were right. For longer than I have been alive, the elite ruling class has been trying to disarm the citizens. Repeatedly, modern elitists have been regularly caught on film and audio saying they can't control armed people and they want 100% confiscation so the elite can fully control the people with no real means of opposition and no recourse.

Criminals don't obey the law, either on the streets or on Capital Hill. Instead of passing pointless legislation that further disarms Americans, empowers the criminals, intrudes on our rights that "shall not be infringed" upon, and provides the elite ruling class with the information to disarm the people, It is imperative that we continue to use our rights while we still have them to ensure we don't become prisoners in our own land or dead.


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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby FiremanBob » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 04:22:30

Kevin, thanks for asking. To me, the issue is more than merely inconvenience and cost. Marc has given a good explanation of one good reason to oppose background checks. Here are some others:

1. Before the Gun Control Act 1968 (yup, that's its real name), you didn't have to fill out federal paperwork to purchase a new gun from a dealer. That law, enacted in the post-MLK and RFK assassination panic, and based on an incorrect reading of the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution, was a major victory for the Progressive gun-grabbers. It required dealers to become FFLs and accept tight regulation of all of their affairs as a condition of being in business. Requiring government registration of all in-state firearms transactions would be the next major step for them. Once the government gets your name into the database of firearms buyers, you never get out. They don't need to know exactly which firearms you purchase (though they could easily find out by auditing the FFL's paperwork - kept for 20 years) to hold you in their database for future "regulatory enforcement" which could include forced registration or confiscation after their next legislative victory. All they need to know is that you participate in firearms transactions to target you for a SWAT-style raid and search of your home and business. By agreeing to these bills, you set yourself up for potential abuse in the future.

2. It simply isn't the government's business whether you buy or sell a firearm from a private individual. It is already a crime to sell a firearm knowingly to a prohibited person. I have never met a firearm owner who would do so, and nearly all ads I see require that the buyer have ID and sign a bill of sale for the seller to hold if the firearm turns up in a bad place in the future. Requiring registration would criminalize millions of safe, legal, private transactions every year. The fact is that the background check law creates a legal distinction between firearms and all other sorts of tools that we buy and sell freely, without prior government interference. To accept this intellectually is to accept the idea that firearms are some special sort of evil device that must be controlled by government. I hope you don't buy that idea.

3. Requiring background checks for private transactions violates the basic principle that as an American, you are free to live your life and free to take responsibility for your actions. It is the government's way of saying that you are not trustworthy enough to make your own decision about to whom you want to sell a firearm. How does that make you feel? Who the hell is the government to decide whether you are good enough to make your own decisions? Most of us still care about such questions.

4. "But we register our cars," some proponents of these bills say. Well, you should ask whether that is proper, too. The only reason we have vehicle titling and registration is that it provides foolproof enforcement of tax revenue to the state.

That's all I can write in this late-night hour.
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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby kkinderen » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:42:12

Thanks for taking the time to help me understand the situation.

As I see it, this current crop of proposed legislation (in particular, the three the NRA-ILA asked me to oppose) are nothing more than add-ons to existing laws (Gun Control Act 1968 and others I assume) which are already infringing on our rights as an American to bear arms. The problem isn't that we would be required to go through a background check at gun shows or when involved in private transactions but the fact we have to do it at all - even when purchasing a new gun from or through a dealer. Before this thread my argument was: We already do it when we buy from dealers so what's the difference when buying at a show. That's giving up without even knowing I was giving up.

Here's a new (for me) observation: There seems to be a lot of energy expended on fighting small add-ons to existing laws. These are almost distractions from being able to put energy into repealing already infringing laws on the books - such as the Gun Control Act of 1968. To use an analogy, we are under siege from existing laws. Fighting new gun-control laws from every angle seems to be an effort to try not to lose more ground. Maybe more effort could be expended in regaining ground lost?

Bio: I'm from Boston, MA moved to Virginia in 1985 after a tour in the Navy. I'm 52, purchased my first gun a little over a year ago, never considered guns or gun rights before that. The trigger to purchase and get involved was a friend talking to me about 2nd Amendment rights and pointing out those that would take away our rights. I kind of felt I had to get involved. I feel like I'm way behind the learning curve and sometimes wonder where the fight is.


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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby allingeneral » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:16:12

Kevin - Welcome aboard, Shipmate. Glad to see you getting involved! :thumbsup:
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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby FiremanBob » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:46:00

Kevin, about the emphasis on fighting new laws rather than trying to repeal old ones: It is very difficult to get a major law repealed. Regardless of how wrong that 1968 law may be, the inertia of a law goes off the charts once it is enacted. For example, look at how hard it has been to roll back Obamacare despite the widely known facts that it was riddled with lies, fraud, and corruption, and completely unworkable in its mechanism as well as causing "unforeseen" collateral damage such as companies dropping coverage, cutting back employees and hours, doctors and hospitals dropping out of the system, et al.

The "Progressives" have always had a strategy known as "creeping incrementalism." They take whatever small victories they can along the way, and keep pushing toward their ultimate evil goals, never giving an inch and always grasping for more. Often they set up their next step as something that seems innocuous in itself but whose evil is revealed after you analyze it in the context of what it will lead to. That is what these new bills represent. That's why perhaps you initial impression was "these aren't so bad" - that is exactly what they want you to think.

While we can't easily roll back existing law, we can successfully fight against these new bills being enacted. And we must. Because each one is a step on the path toward confiscation.
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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby kelu » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:56:09

FiremanBob wrote:we can fight against these new bills being enacted. And we must. Because each one is a step on the path toward confiscation.

:clap: Thank you!
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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby trailrunner » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:53:31

It's death by a thousand cuts. Each one of these reasonable laws sounds innocent enough, but together, they add up to a whole lot, and go way over what "shall not be infringed" was meant to protect us against. As others have noted in this thread, the anti-gun people want to bury us in a lot of small laws - make a patchwork so complex and onerous it either prevents us from exercising our rights, or it ensnares innocent people in a law they were not aware of.

Furthermore, universal background checks will do absolutely nothing to stop crime. If a criminal knows he is not supposed to buy a gun, and if he knows he is going to use it in a crime, why would he voluntarily go through a background check? He'll just buy a stolen gun on the black market. The only ones who will obey this law are the law-abiding - the ones we don't have to worry about anyway.

Again, as others have noted, once a law is in place, it's nearly impossible to repeal it. It's like taxes and entropy. And I don't trust the government. They say now they would never use the information for registration, but let the administration turn over, and the next administration will ignore that promise, or conveniently forget, or re-interpret it, and use it for registration.

There is not a single new gun law needed - period. Except those that give us back our rights.


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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby kkinderen » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:08:17

As a hypothetical example I see 10 new bills introduced for gun control. Out of them 8 are rejected. Is that a win for 2nd Amendment supporters? We lost 2 so we lost ground. We'll always lose ground if we can't attack and remove existing laws. The math is against us if a law is a permanent loss.


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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby FiremanBob » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:38:38

Kevin: I don't think that each Leftist victory is a permanent loss. You have to look at the whole field of this battle. The Left is like terrorists - they only have to get lucky a few times, we need 100% success. We have to stop their attacks in each legislative session, at every level - local, state and federal.

Nor are we entirely on the defensive. There are a number of very good pro-firearm and pro-self-defense bills being considered. These include lifetime concealed carry permits, the ability of private schools to set their own policies regarding carry by employees, and extending Virginia CCL reciprocity to all states. You can see VCDL's analysis of all pending bills here: http://www2.vcdl.org/webapps/vcdl/2014leg.html

At the federal level, conditions are not favorable to rolling back existing law or to enact pro-liberty laws in the legislative process. The extreme Left controls both the Senate and the Presidency. Recent Supreme Court decisions have gone in our favor; but SCOTUS is a political institution too, and if the Left should get control of the court as they had from 1940-2000, that could change quickly.

So we must defeat each of their attacks, and we must win our own small victories where possible. Politics is by necessity an incremental process under our American system. "Fundamental transformation", to borrow a phrase, is not realistic.
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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby MNMGoneShooting » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:28:22

Kevin, recommend you review some of Kelu's posts throughout the last year or so. He has been a huge eye opener for me (thanks, Kelu!)
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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby Remek » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:41:28

There is a lot of info, but I'd like to point out the registration thing better.

It is well known that BATFE is not only requiring the dealers to keep copies of the transfers, but they actually are copying the records of dealers, in flagrant violation of the law.

This private transfer nonsense would actually literally give the government full knowledge of what you have, over time.

The question is, do YOU think they will not use it one day to take your firearms?

Trust us all, it's a step toward confiscation.

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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby Remek » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:43:12

To the car registration argument, cars aren't our right. They are a privilege.

But also, note how much cars are taxed. Want to pay personal property, be forced to have insurance, and have your guns inspected one day?

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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby FiremanBob » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:25:51

Actually, I believe that cars are our right, and are not a privilege. They are private property just like any other property we own and use, and we take the responsibility to ensure that they are used safely. It is very dangerous to say that any of our right to life, liberty and property is a "privilege". It opens the door to the "government as the source of rights" argument and unlimited government authority over what used to be free people.

Exactly how does vehicle registration ensure safety on the public roads?
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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby Remek » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:31:40

I want to add one last thing: guns sold this way are NOT associated with crime. Moreover, if you've ever talked to the people selling this way, they are careful, wanting to have ID, and often a CHP or recent gun purchase receipt before selling. They already know BATFE will be up their butts if the gun is used as a tool in crime.

Why make more laws? We don't have an issue here, and there are too many made already. So many, in fact, that the laws often conflict!

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Re: Today's NRA-ILA Alert

Postby Remek » Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:32:31

FB, I agree, but I am stating the car thing as how it's viewed by government.

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