Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

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Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

Postby RockSlice » Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:41:42

I recently came into possession of an 1858 Remington cap and ball revolver, and have two questions:

First, it shoots reliably high and to the left (about 6 inches at 10 yards). What could cause this, and could it be fixed? (and before you ask, I wasn't the only one shooting it, so it's not me)

Also, I'm trying to identify the manufacturer's mark. It was proofed in Italy by the Gardone Proof House in 1979. On the top of the barrel it says "New Model Army Richland Arms Co.", which seems to be the importer. On the bottom of the grip is the only manufacturer's stamp I've been able to find, which is two diamonds side by side, slightly overlapping, and then a serial number 4183.
Any ideas which company made this gun?


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Re: Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

Postby meak99 » Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:24:08



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Re: Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

Postby jdonovan » Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:38:41

pedersoli is the other common BP gun maker.
I've seen Pietta guns as well.

I assume this gun has the fully fixed sights... some models I've see had a drift-able front, some its a part of the barrel and is immovable.

High point of impact might be related to the powder charge/projectile you are using. A light charge/heavy ball would lead to slower projectile, and a longer in-barrel time for the projectile, and as the gun recoils up, the point of aim also goes up before the projectile can leave the barrel. This might also explain the too the left problem as well.

I assume you didn't get a manual with the gun, so you don't have recommended charge weights to work from?

a few questions

What projectile weight/powder charge/powder type are you using?
real black powder or a substitute?
Any over powder wad?
Greasing over the ball?


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Re: Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

Postby RockSlice » Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:47:50

It doesn't have the marks for Uberti, Pedersoli, Pietta, or ASM. I should also mention that I gave it a thorough cleaning before trying to shoot it, and no marks were hidden behind parts.
It does look almost exactly like the photo in the second link, but with a brass frame.

The only manual I got with it was the Ultra HI "Muzzle-loader's Manual" from 1975.
This used to be my father-in-law's gun, so I'm using mostly what he had to go with it.

The balls I used were what he had, so not sure what weight. It did take a lot of force to push in.

I'm shooting 30 grains of powder. I'm not sure what type, as I got a container of real BP as well as a container of Pyrodex P, and the powder flask wasn't empty. Powder's at least 20 years old, so that might explain not having enough force. I did notice that it had less recoil than the modern 45 cal pistols I've shot.

I used wonder-wads (new) between the powder and the ball. No over-ball grease.


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Re: Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

Postby jdonovan » Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:22:47

RockSlice wrote:The balls I used were what he had, so not sure what weight. It did take a lot of force to push in.


Thats fairly typical, as you want the ball oversize so that you get flat sides as it goes into they cylinder. The flatter sides grab the rifling better, and they seal better to they cylinder.

The other possible is they were cast at home, and might be a lead alloy, not pure lead, and therefore a bit harder than you might expect.

I'm shooting 30 grains of powder. I'm not sure what type, as I got a container of real BP as well as a container of Pyrodex P, and the powder flask wasn't empty. Powder's at least 20 years old, so that might explain not having enough force. I did notice that it had less recoil than the modern 45 cal pistols I've shot.


BP is HIGHLY hygroscopic (absorbs water) and burns more slowly if its wet. Also without a marked container, the BP you have might be 2F, i.e. rifle powder.

A 'full' load for a modern reproduction could be upwards of 40-45 grains of 3F. As an example the Ruger old-army (an 1858 replica) says you can fill the cylinder as full as you want without 'over charging' the gun.

I'd suggest getting some current powder, of known type/grade, as well some new projectiles. Try working up the load in about 5 grain increments to see if point of aim changes.

Note moden roundballs are offered in a few '.44 cal' sizes. .451 .454 .457 without calipers to measure the current projectiles it is going to be a bit of trial and error to find a perfect fit.


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Re: Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

Postby RockSlice » Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:31:23

Unless the flask was filled from a container I don't have, it's 3F, but I'll try a 40 grain load of new powder. I'll post results after my next range trip (could be a few weeks)


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Re: Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

Postby jdonovan » Fri, 13 Jul 2012 05:49:40

if you are in the NoVa/central va area and want some company on a trip send me a PM. I can bring one of my BP wheel guns for comparison.


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Re: Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

Postby RockSlice » Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:26:19

Unfortunately not. I'm in the Hampton Roads area (attached to Norfolk Naval Station)


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Re: Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

Postby RockSlice » Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:48:35

I tried your suggestion, and shot with 40 grains of new Pyrodex P.
The gun now shoots level, but still the same amount to the left. I'm guessing I just have an inaccurate gun.


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Re: Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

Postby jdonovan » Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:25:47

RockSlice wrote:I tried your suggestion, and shot with 40 grains of new Pyrodex P. The gun now shoots level


wohoo!

, but still the same amount to the left.

well snap.

The I assume the front sight is part of the casting?
The rear sight is a groove in the top strap of the frame?


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Re: Aim off, and identifying manufacturer?

Postby RockSlice » Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:26:55

The I assume the front sight is part of the casting?
The rear sight is a groove in the top strap of the frame?

Correct. The sights are non-adjustable, and the gun is off by more than most adjustable sights I've seen could compensate for.


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