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Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby wbtrunx » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 19:26:35

Lack of communication...

I wasn't thinking of MOUT/CQ.
I was going more for the regular qual/kd ranges.
Yes, we do alot more of the shoot, move, communicate stuff than the POG jarheads.
I agree with that.

The DS would smoke us if he heard burst fire go off. It's good that they're updating training.
We were still digging foxholes.


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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby Palladin » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 20:26:35

DWinter wrote:I have to admit, I went to Great Lakes for basic in 1983 and I didn't find it all that difficult. I'm not trying to put down my own beloved USN but the advanced avionics training after boot camp was a lot more difficult in the mental way. Physically, just coming out of high school, it wasn't too bad. I wish my body was in that good of shape now. Now, what used to be my chest and shoulders, has relocated to my belly and my ass and my hair went from my head to my ears, nose and back.


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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby HotBrass » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 20:57:56

I'll take a Soldier from Sand Hill to be my battle-buddy in combat before I would a know-it-all ChairForce Airman who sports a Combat Action Ribbon from only doing one tour. Seen those things get passed out for paper cuts and really deep splinters.

BUT, since I don't know anyone of you personally, thats just an opinion of mine not meant to get anyones butt's bruised.
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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby Yarddawg » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 21:12:02

DWinter wrote:Now, what used to be my chest and shoulders, has relocated to my belly and my ass and my hair went from my head to my ears, nose and back.


Welcome to middle age buddy! I see that you have found your matching rug...on your back! :hysterical:
Engage your brain!


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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby HeadHunter13 » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 21:26:28

. Seen those things get passed out for paper cuts and really deep splinters.....Yea two IEDs will give you alot of splinters :roll: I was waiting for the internet tough guy to show up glad you could make it.
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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby HotBrass » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 22:10:01

HeadHunter13 wrote:Im sure it did.....Thank god this is not the Vietnam era anymore.


HeadHunter13 wrote:....what????? That makes entirely no sense at all....I seriously have doubts about your credibility after reading that.


Seems like the "Internet Tought Guy" has been here the whole time...
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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby Snazuolu » Tue, 07 Jun 2011 00:49:23

i never really understood what all the hub bub over who had the toughtest basic training was about. when i was in, BMT was only 6 and a half weeks. tech school was far worse mentally and physically i thought. and besides, once you got out of both, it was just like a reg job... i felt like the dunkin donuts guy.. gotta get up to go work on tankers. i had a friend who wanted to go into the marines because the BMT was harder..never made sense to me since its not like you will be in BMT for your time. why base one branch over another based off your indoctrination period.


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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby zephyp » Tue, 07 Jun 2011 07:52:36

Bottom line with any military training is the mentality of the instructors, how well they can read people, and how far they stretch the training ROE. The toughest training can be crap without those things coming together...and too bad that alot of the standard combat training today has to be modulated by dumb regulations that tie the hands of the instructors which produce powder puffs rather than weeding them out...and yes still alot of good training out there once you get in and catch someones eye or wiggle your way in...
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...

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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby acguy45 » Tue, 07 Jun 2011 16:01:05

zephyp wrote:Bottom line with any military training is the mentality of the instructors, how well they can read people, and how far they stretch the training ROE. The toughest training can be crap without those things coming together...and too bad that alot of the standard combat training today has to be modulated by dumb regulations that tie the hands of the instructors which produce powder puffs rather than weeding them out...and yes still alot of good training out there once you get in and catch someones eye or wiggle your way in...



+1 you hit the nail on the head. The regs have gotten alot softer and its alot of politics involved. but as an AIT instructor I work within several constraints and that handful of soldiers who "Get It" make it worth it. during there FTX training they get here they get some FAM fire around and over obstacles and covoy live fire with crew served weapons and dismounted. It's pretty much crawl walk stage training but it gets a little better when they get to a line unit.


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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby Jumper501 » Wed, 08 Jun 2011 09:31:48

I don't think broken legs is an accurate way to test the toughest training. If one place has systems set up to prevent injury so they are not wasting money breaking its recruits that does not mean they are not "tough"

I also do not think marksmanship training is a good gauge either. BRM was some of my most fun times on sandhill. We also did kneeling, standing, transition and moving target fire. Yes, shooting out to 500y is an admiral skill, but most army engagements are less than 300 so that is the way they train.

My humble opinion is the "toughest" could be measured by which one pushes your limits to hardest and gets you to achieve both physical and mental things you never thought you could. Possibly all of the services do in different ways.

I also, from my experience you can look at the Army Airborne School as a good gauge of the toughest. We had members from all services in our class of 400. Less than 200 graduated. To us 11B guys coming off of Sand Hill, Airborne School was a breeze (only 10 push-ups at a time and a mandatory 9 min mile run pace to pass) Out of the 40 Marines, only 4 graduated. They were all force recon, and the wash-outs were soft skill. The other services were the same, the combat arms finished, and most of the soft skills did not. So it is not necessarily the service that is toughest, but the job skill.


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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby Chasbo00 » Wed, 08 Jun 2011 10:07:31

It's been 40 years since I went to Airborne School at Ft. Benning. I thought then and still do that it was a good, efficient and well run school. But, I never thought of it as tough. I also don't recall a high washout rate. How does one washout from Airborne School? Get hurt (injured) or balk on a jump from the tower or an aircraft were about the only way to fail that I recall. Also, only 10 push-ups and a mile in 9 minutes? I would be ashamed of such ridiculously low standards for any military training involving combat skills.
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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby acguy45 » Wed, 08 Jun 2011 11:52:27

There are certainly alot of factors that come into play. The reference here is from BCT data collected but it carries on into the operatioanal forces as to.

Today's generation for the most part is nowhere near as active as they used to be as say 15-20 yrs ago. Alot of the new boot's are fresh from hi school or and load tested couches playing video games and shoveling junk food in there guts getting weak instead of playing sports or doing physical activity. this along with wearing IBA and all the other gear they wear during training and tends to "break them off" alot more easily. Also since the war has been going on they have lowered the bar on entry requirements for some of the branches alot. I'm not a doctor and Idon't play one on tv but the candy a$$ chromosome is a big factor. I don't like the lowered standards thing myself but i do partially understand it. As a leader all you can do is get them up to speed or try to cut the red tape to send them packing. Anyone who is or has beeen in any brach of the military knows change comes slow and if it makes sense it usually is not done.

As far as the job skill sets go alot of schools(with the exception of Spec Ops) are generalized irregardless of MOS/job skill and hi attrition rates are not something that happen alot or to frequently or your POI/accredidation for that course is going to fall under serious scrutiny, It's a #'s game.

and I see alot of "pogues" with wings, tabs etc.During trainingand on runs and ruck marches I have seen some "meat eaters" get scooped up in the fall out truck as well. The "chromosome" is everywhere regardless of job.


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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby Chasbo00 » Wed, 08 Jun 2011 22:14:02

The Army's MINIMUM standard for a TWO MILE run for males aged 17 to 21 is 15 minutes and 54 seconds. I would think Airborne School has higher standards; but, certainly not lower. I'm curious about where the previously mentioned 9 minute single mile run reference came from.

http://www.apft-standards.com/run-male.html
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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby Snazuolu » Thu, 09 Jun 2011 00:18:18

i remember the USAF standards during BMT was 2 miles in 18 mins. so yea i'd think the airborne standard was better than that,


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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby Chasbo00 » Thu, 09 Jun 2011 05:03:35

Chasbo00 wrote: I'm curious about where the previously mentioned 9 minute single mile run reference came from.


OK, I found an answer on the Airborne School's Web site. The 9 minute per mile pace is for a 4-mile run (probably still done in formation):

WARNING: WHEN CONDUCTING PHYSICAL TRAINING PRIOR TO THE BASIC AIRBORNE COURSE AT YOUR HOME STATION, DESIGN A PROGRAM TO ACHIEVE THE FOLLOWING: COMPLETION OF A 4-MILE RUN WITH A TIME OF 36 MINUTES OR FASTER AFTER CONDUCTING 30 MINUTES OF STRENUOUS ACTIVITY (MUSCULAR STRENGTH EXERCISES, MUSCULAR ENDURANCE EXERCISES, CALISTHENICS, AND GRASS DRILLS).

The Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) is used by the Basic Airborne Course (BAC) to ensure Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines meet minimum physical fitness requirements necessary to successfully complete Airborne training. In order to enter the course, the prospective student MUST score a MINIMUM of 60% on the lowest age group scale. This equates to 42 push-ups, 53 sit-ups, and a 15:54 or faster on the 2-mile run for males and 19 push-ups, 53 sit-ups, and an 18:54 or faster on the 2-mile run for females.


https://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/1 ... rne/pt.htm

I don't think Airborne School has a high attrition rate though.
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Re: Which branch of the armed Forces has the toughest training?

Postby zephyp » Thu, 09 Jun 2011 05:19:14

Before my knees started going south I could do the Airborne Shuffle all day...
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...

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