Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

There is a current thread on this forum about how Islam will ruin our country. After thinking about it some, I realized that the only religion I know of that is actively engaged in taking away my rights is Christianity. Before anybody gets spittin' mad, here me out...

Last week I happened upon the close-the-gun-show-loophole message of Rev. Adams-Riley of St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Richmond. It was so dishonest and misleading, that I put up a blog post correcting his misinformation, then sent him an email asking him to come clean. The post is here: http://buserror.hxr.us/2010/08/lying-for-christ.html

He eventually responded with a non-answer here: http://buserror.hxr.us/2010/08/response ... riley.html

So I ask, why am I suppose to be watching out for the Muslims when it is my fellow Christians, in the name of Christ, trying to take my guns away? In deed, many Christians preach "social justice", which is just another way of saying socialism if you ask me.

I had an employer once who used to say "It takes all kinds". That was his canned response to every complaint I made about the ineptitude or negligence of my fellow employees.

His business has now failed and he himself is employed by someone else.

I guess it takes "all kinds".

He, and Mr. Adams-Riley (a man with a hyphenated surname?) are certifiable twits, neither able to see the forest for the trees.

Is that all Episcopalians or just that pastor?

So I ask, why am I suppose to be watching out for the Muslims when it is my fellow Christians, in the name of Christ, trying to take my guns away? In deed, many Christians preach "social justice", which is just another way of saying socialism if you ask me.

It does seem that there is a large social justice movement within the church. I have personally seen it in my church and I don't like it at all. Please note however this is not the religion as a whole but instead the church only. Move churches, speak to friend about such topics. Talk about versus such as these.

"If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him," we are told in Exodus 22:2. The next verse says, "If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Maybe he should study his bible more.
Prov 12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Prov 13:5 A righteous man hateth lying : but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.

Ex 23:1 A Call for Justice
"You must not pass along false rumors. You must not cooperate with evil people by lying on the witness stand. 2 "You must not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you are called to testify in a dispute, do not be swayed by the crowd to twist justice.

WRW wrote:Is that all Episcopalians or just that pastor?

I can guarantee it's not all Episcopalians

This fool is abusing his power, plain & simple. His congregation should call him on it and the vestry should cencure him. The problem, of course, is that he will attract like minded people who will close their minds & open their wallets and he will gain more power to abuse.

Preachers should not preach politics any more than politicians should legislate religon.

KaosDad wrote:

WRW wrote:Is that all Episcopalians or just that pastor?

I can guarantee it's not all Episcopalians

This fool is abusing his power, plain & simple. His congregation should call him on it and the vestry should cencure him. The problem, of course, is that he will attract like minded people who will close their minds & open their wallets and he will gain more power to abuse.

Preachers should not preach politics any more than politicians should legislate religon.

I suspected as much. Thanks for making that clear.

LFS wrote:After thinking about it some, I realized that the only religion I know of that is actively engaged in taking away my rights is Christianity.

That's a pretty broad brush stroke. Although this guy is a pastor of a church, he's not all of "Christianity", but just an individual with an opinion and a bully pulpit. This is a downtown Richmond church, and he may well be aligned to the opinions of many of his congregants.
During election cycles, if you take a walk through The Fan area, or other neighborhoods of downtown Richmond, one can see what the political climate is. Almost every yard has a sign endorsing liberal candidates or issues. If you walk through my suburban neighborhood, you may see a mix, but far more conservative candidates/issues signs. And the opinions of people in nearby churches leans conservative, as well.
We should consider the source of the rhetoric from Mr. Adams-Riley; a guy with an audience and a social opinion. He may want to take away your gun rights, as do some other liberals, but Christianity isn't seeking to do that.

Parry

newdovo wrote:

LFS wrote:After thinking about it some, I realized that the only religion I know of that is actively engaged in taking away my rights is Christianity.

That's a pretty broad brush stroke. Although this guy is a pastor of a church, he's not all of "Christianity", but just an individual with an opinion and a bully pulpit. This is a downtown Richmond church, and he may well be aligned to the opinions of many of his congregants.
During election cycles, if you take a walk through The Fan area, or other neighborhoods of downtown Richmond, one can see what the political climate is. Almost every yard has a sign endorsing liberal candidates or issues. If you walk through my suburban neighborhood, you may see a mix, but far more conservative candidates/issues signs. And the opinions of people in nearby churches leans conservative, as well.
We should consider the source of the rhetoric from Mr. Adams-Riley; a guy with an audience and a social opinion. He may want to take away your gun rights, as do some other liberals, but Christianity isn't seeking to do that.

Parry

Exactly. Also, you should consider the fact that people associate with all kinds of groups because they view them as "good," but have no intentions of actually committing to that groups agenda. We have had several threads on here about stolen honor. It is the same deal, they want to associate with the heroes, but they aren't actually one of them. Similarly, today in American there are many churches who make God out to be who they want Him to be rather than who He is. They pervert Christianity to suit their social and political agenda.

I need to be clear. I am not saying Rev. Adams-Riley's church is like that, but given the context, the evidence isn't looking good. Also, perfect knowledge is not required for salvation or else we would all be in trouble.

I think this has been posted before, but the Bible is very clear about the moral and ethical requirement to preserve another life against those who would choose to take it. The Bible also has many instances where it calls the people to take up arms for protection.

http://www.biblicalselfdefense.com/

newdovo wrote:

LFS wrote:After thinking about it some, I realized that the only religion I know of that is actively engaged in taking away my rights is Christianity.

That's a pretty broad brush stroke. Although this guy is a pastor of a church, he's not all of "Christianity", but just an individual with an opinion and a bully pulpit.

Good point. But does it apply to the Muslim holding up a sign reading "Death to the Infidels"? Is all of Islam trying to ruin our country when it is just a few agitators getting our attention?

LFS wrote:There is a current thread on this forum about how Islam will ruin our country. .

I wish you would have included this thread, because I haven't found the one talking about taking away YOUR right to own a gun, which is implied in your current rant.


Islamic radicals will destroy this country just as they have done to much of Europe, and the willing accomplices will be foolish american "moderates" who don't recognize when their throats are being cut. While some will say " how does this affect me?"[a typically selfish attitude], a truely patriotic American would ask "why don't these people want to assimilate into OUR culture?"

I didn't and won't read your blog post or the reply from some misinformed "christian" so-called leader only because most people don't even realize that the phrase "taking the Lord's name in vain" means people who call themselves christian, and act otherwise.

One needs only look at France , or Spain to see the workings behind the Islamic population and their goals. Even Germany and England are struggling with this dilemma. It has nothing to do with your guns. The reason the Islamic scurge is accomplishing its goals worldwide is simply they have used the policies of "tolerant" nations against those nations. It would take you mere mintues to educate yourself about these tendencies and accomplishments, but for some reason you have failed to do so.? To me, thats questionable for someone who posed such an inquisitive article, and yet seems so savvy about internet research?

LFS wrote:

newdovo wrote:

LFS wrote:After thinking about it some, I realized that the only religion I know of that is actively engaged in taking away my rights is Christianity.

That's a pretty broad brush stroke. Although this guy is a pastor of a church, he's not all of "Christianity", but just an individual with an opinion and a bully pulpit.

Good point. But does it apply to the Muslim holding up a sign reading "Death to the Infidels"? Is all of Islam trying to ruin our country when it is just a few agitators getting our attention?

Since it is ok to lie to the infidel, how do you know either way? If you ask them and they say "no, we are not trying to conquer America or kill infidels..." You could take them for their word, but they may have just gotten a brownie point with allah. Just saying...

gunderwood wrote:Good point. But does it apply to the Muslim holding up a sign reading "Death to the Infidels"? Is all of Islam trying to ruin our country when it is just a few agitators getting our attention?

Since it is ok to lie to the infidel, how do you know either way? If you ask them and they say "no, we are not trying to conquer America or kill infidels..." You could take them for their word, but they may have just gotten a brownie point with allah. Just saying...

[/quote]

So can I assume the Christians who say they don't want to take my gun rights away are simply lying to me as well? Because I've obviously caught an Episcopal priest misrepresenting the facts, and he makes no pretenses about what he wants to do with my rights. Where does it end?

These are just rhetorical questions. Of course I know their are Christians out there, even Episcopalians, you support my second amendment rights. I just went down this tangent to prove a point about over generalizing a large number of people.

GS78 wrote:

LFS wrote:There is a current thread on this forum about how Islam will ruin our country. .

I wish you would have included this thread, because I haven't found the one talking about taking away YOUR right to own a gun, which is implied in your current rant.

Well, ok. Rev. Adams-Riley is simply prancing around with a group anti-gun people and talking about the gun-show loophole. You are right to point out that I inferred his intent to take my guns away and that he wouldn't just stop at taking away the gun-show loophole. But we've all seen this game played before. They don't stop with just one thing, do they? Or do you actually believe in the mythical gun-show loophole?

GS78 wrote:Islamic radicals will destroy this country just as they have done to much of Europe, and the willing accomplices will be foolish american "moderates" who don't recognize when their throats are being cut. While some will say " how does this affect me?"[a typically selfish attitude], a truely patriotic American would ask "why don't these people want to assimilate into OUR culture?"

Yes, I agree that Islamic radicals will destroy this country if given a chance. And so would Christian radicals, and Hindu radicals, and Jewish radicals. That's what radicals do. But not all Muslims are Islamic radicals... some are just Islamic.

And btw, I was just in Europe last month. It didn't look destroyed to me. I saw people openly smoking pot in Amsterdam and I personally drank a good bit of beer at the many sidewalk restaurants. And those are things the Islamic radicals HATE HATE HATE. But it happens quite a bit over there.

GS78 wrote:It would take you mere mintues to educate yourself about these tendencies and accomplishments, but for some reason you have failed to do so.? To me, thats questionable for someone who posed such an inquisitive article, and yet seems so savvy about internet research?

Do you always question a person's love of country and God merely for disagreeing with you? That's not an admirable quality.

Please show me the Bible passage that says it is ok to lie to a non-believer? Which one actually commands it if lying would advance Christianity?

Sure, anyone can lie to a non-believer, but as far as I know, only Islam commands it if it furthers the interest of Islam.

gunderwood wrote:Please show me the Bible passage that says it is ok to lie to a non-believer? Which one actually commands it if lying would advance Christianity?

Sure, anyone can lie to a non-believer, but as far as I know, only Islam commands it if it furthers the interest of Islam.

I'm no Islamic scholar, but I believe you've misstated the justification in the Islamic text for lying. From what I can tell, Islam allows for lying if it is unintentional (something you and I call a mistake, not a lie), in times of war, or in the event a person must chose between two evils. The whole notion that Islam "commands it if it furthers the interest of Islam" is predicated on the idea that Muslims are at war with non-believers at all times. That might be true for the people we call jihadists but not for all Muslims.

Besides, isn't there a similar thing in Christian philosophy called "situational ethics"? I seem to recall you bringing that up before.

oh please, don't stoop to such an idiotic level. So you were in Amsterdam with a bunch of pot smoking "free thinkers"? is that your claim? do you also think that child prostitution is acceptable as long as the child has a :"good time"?

You don't really express to us your observance of evening prayers in Paris do you?

Let me inform you of something that is very troubling to the French Government;

Every evening in and around the Parisian suburbs, ever-increasing groups of muslims are being called, and responding to the call for "prayer".

Some might ask "whats the problem?"

The problem is this;

these prayerful muslims are breaking the law. They are breaking French law by publically gathering and publically expressing their "beliefs" in a society that has strict secular rules about such behavior.

The Islamic hordes have no interest in abiding by any law except Sharia.

When these prayerful muslims are called to their prayers, they are protected by their own security forces,(another thing that is prohibited ,specifically by French Law) these "security forces" have kept the infidels (anyone not muslim) under arrest during the course of their tyrannical abominations. For those of you who tend to be "more tolerant" than myself, it translates as such;

Lets say that the Islamic center near your subdivision calls for their evening "prayers" and it causes you to not be allowed into your neighborhood ..(because you , as an infidel will not be allowed to interupt )

well, its just the price YOU have to pay to accomodate them. Its YOUR responsibility. The French have learned this lesson.



as for your idiotic assertion that I question anybody's love of country for disagreeing with me.. thats as assinine as saying the muslim community means us no harm. Look to histroy and you will clearly see that the Muslim community intends harm to every society it has infiltrated since the begining of time . If you think the "mosque" in N.Y. at the site of the 9-11 attacks (by muslims) is intended for any purpose other than a memorial to those radical islamic terrorists, you are as wrong as 2 times 4 equals 12.

All you have to do to become informed is to see what and how the Islamic community has "adapted" to life in europe.



... the answer is clear, they have NOT adapted. They have co-opted. They have done exactly what they are doing here in Virginia. They have set up enclaves where their actions cannot be questioned. They live in closed communities , while they call on us to "allow" them to govern themselves by sharia law, and argue that it is somehow a civil right. Like they do in france and spain, they live in polygamous relationships and raise numerous children at the expense of the host country like parasitic entities.They call on us to be tolerant of their "cultural" differences while they conspire to eliminate our culture.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=re ... =&gs_rfai=


We used to have a saying in vietnam..... "if you're going to hell, you might as well have your eyes open for the ride";

there is no need to sugarcoat anything, see it for what it is;deal with it; and get on with it.

LFS wrote:

gunderwood wrote:Please show me the Bible passage that says it is ok to lie to a non-believer? Which one actually commands it if lying would advance Christianity?

Sure, anyone can lie to a non-believer, but as far as I know, only Islam commands it if it furthers the interest of Islam.

I'm no Islamic scholar, but I believe you've misstated the justification in the Islamic text for lying. From what I can tell, Islam allows for lying if it is unintentional (something you and I call a mistake, not a lie), in times of war, or in the event a person must chose between two evils. The whole notion that Islam "commands it if it furthers the interest of Islam" is predicated on the idea that Muslims are at war with non-believers at all times. That might be true for the people we call jihadists but not for all Muslims.

Besides, isn't there a similar thing in Christian philosophy called "situational ethics"? I seem to recall you bringing that up before.

No, situational ethics isn't a Christian philosophy. The Bible teaches just the opposite as those pushing situational ethics. The only support they could come up with for "situational ethics" is that God loves you more than He hates the sin. Yes, clearly Jesus wasn't need to pay the price for sinners. To even suggest situational ethics invalidates the need and idea that Jesus died for sinners and it was required (there is no other way). Yes, God forgives sin, but it is never right to commit sin. That the Bible is clear on that.


Yes, they are at war with us. Their holy book commands it (the later versus which supersede the older ones). Here is one such article, but there are many. http://www.emersonknives.com/ekMyView_M ... Muslim.php

Sura 9:29

“Fight those who believe not
In Allah nor the last day,
Nor hold that forbidden
Which hath been forbidden
By Allah and his messenger
Nor acknowledge the religion
Of truth, from among
The people of the book
Until they pay the Jizya-‘
With willing submission,
And feel themselves subdued.”

They are commanded to subdue the world. Until that is accomplished, they are at war with everyone and it is permissible to lie to achieve those ends.


Islam is not equivalent to Christianity or many other religions. Show me where is says it is OK to sin in Christianity, like you acknowledged Islam does. It never does. In fact, the Bible in many places shows that situational ethics are false. E.g. Abraham lied about Sarah being his wife to save his life. This is something situational ethics proposes as something God is ok with because the little thing of lying is overshadowed by the bigger thing of Abraham's assumed death. God brought condemnation on them for taking another mans wife even though they were lied too about it.

One difference is that bad things people like to pin on Christianity are clearly forbidden by the Bible. No where does it say you will be forgiven your sins if you fight the Muslim invader like the Catholic church promised during the Crusades. No where does it say it is ok to sin like those pushing situational ethics say. Those are things man created to make God into the image they wish them to be, but you can not find them in the Bible. You can't find any verse that supports those false teachings.

On the contrary, Islam's holy book, the Koran, is riddled with such instructions and commands. Knowing what is in a persons heart is different than knowing what their book teaches. The Koran clearly teaches that Islam is to subdue the whole earth. Until that is accomplished, they are at war and it is permissible to lie to further those ends.

GS78 wrote:... the answer is clear, they have NOT adapted. They have co-opted. They have done exactly what they are doing here in Virginia. They have set up enclaves where their actions cannot be questioned. They live in closed communities , while they call on us to "allow" them to govern themselves by sharia law, and argue that it is somehow a civil right. Like they do in france and spain, they live in polygamous relationships and raise numerous children at the expense of the host country like parasitic entities.They call on us to be tolerant of their "cultural" differences while they conspire to eliminate our culture.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=re ... =&gs_rfai=

GS78, you stand corrected...they are adapting just fine in France:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil ... _in_France

Gunderwood,

I get it, you don't believe in situational ethics. But some Christians do. Therefore how can I know that I can trust even some Christians, when there are some that might lie to advance Christianity? See where this is going?

Do you truly believe that all Muslims are deceitful? Do you truly believe that they are all lying to you?

Again, I'm not an Islamic scholar. But you've plucked one verse out of the Koran to prove your point. It is the same thing atheists have been doing to Christians for years... pulling Bible passages out of context to show that Christians are hateful, insane, etc. Did Jesus really mean that rich men can't get into heaven when he said that thing about camels and needles? No, but the scripture can certainly be plucked apart to be misrepresented that way.

Regarding lying to save your life. Are you saying you wouldn't lie to save your life? Would you lie to save the lives of your children?