Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

zephyp wrote:

This part.

Ah T, I know that some Muslim's have become Americans and serve our country...and for the most part many of the ones targeted by tainted comments are considered extremists. I for one am thankful for any person who willingly and honorably sheds their blood in defense our our nation and way of life. Sometimes we need to put things in perspective. Extremists are on both sides of this argument.

One of the issues I have is that there is a big push to white wash every Christian and every Muslim as an extremist. The big problem is this --- the MSM and the current administration are tending to fall in large numbers on one side...that aint right.

zephyp wrote:

Vahunter wrote:I might ruffle a few feathers with what I'm about to say but it sure wouldn't be the first time. Religion, the biggest scam known to man created by man. It's not that I don't believe in God, it's the fact that I don't have to listen to the horse crap from a preacher or pad his pocket to believe. I think I can get alot closer to God in the woods that he made than in a church that wants a percentage of my pay. I'm not picking on one religion, it's the same thing in them all. So who cares what a preacher says about control.

Amen brother...

zephyp wrote:One of the issues I have is that there is a big push to white wash every Christian and every Muslim as an extremist.

One of the issues I have is that there is a big push to whitewash every church as a money grabbing house of hypocrites and that worshiping with people who share similar beliefs at an appointed time in a sanctified building on a certain day of the week is unnecessary in personal spiritual growth.

zephyp wrote:One of the issues I have is that there is a big push to white wash every Christian and every Muslim as an extremist. The big problem is this --- the MSM and the current administration are tending to fall in large numbers on one side...that aint right.

DK, how on Earth are the MSM gonna get us to buy their newspapers and watch their advertisements if they tell it like it is and don't over sensationalize stories?

As for Obama... elections have consequences. I actively campaigned for McCain because I could see the horrendous train wreck that Obama would be. I thought it was fairly obvious. I may disagree with the liberals who voted for him, but for many I respect that they and I see policies differently... even if many of them are now realizing that they were wrong. But for the "conservatives" who didn't vote for McCain because he wasn't the most perfect candidate, for the "conservatives" that ran around calling him Juan McCain and trying to demoralize the rest of us, and for the "conservatives" who claimed he crashed his plane or denigrated is military service to find some thin thread of justification to stay home in Nov 2008, I have but one question: HAPPY NOW, MORONS?

Sorry, couldn't help myself. That's not directed at you DK... just a general rant.

If extremists, Muslim or otherwise, do end up ruining this country, it will be because we let them.

zephyp wrote:Ah T, I know that some Muslim's have become Americans and serve our country...and for the most part many of the ones targeted by tainted comments are considered extremists. I for one am thankful for any person who willingly and honorably sheds their blood in defense our our nation and way of life. Sometimes we need to put things in perspective. Extremists are on both sides of this argument.

We both know that. This was as much to remind everyone else viewing this thread of it. Too often it looks to me like some of the comments on this board and other places are saying "the Muslims", i. e. not just "the religious extremists", but rather all Muslims, want to kill Americans. You're of course right, not all Muslims are like that.

One of the issues I have is that there is a big push to white wash every Christian and every Muslim as an extremist. The big problem is this --- the MSM and the current administration are tending to fall in large numbers on one side...that aint right.

In this case, I'm at somewhat of an advantage, I think, because I ascribe to no religion whatsoever. So, I don't really have a dog in the "which religion wins" fight that a lot of folks out here in the world like to pick. I hear equally of "religious fundamentalist nutjobs"--generally referring to Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals--and "Islamic extremists/terrorists". To listen to the MSM, both the Christians and the Muslims want to just eliminate or subjugate those who "aren't like them". We see the same kind of thing in India with the Hindus trying to kill the Muslims, and vice-versa. We saw it with the Serbs and Bosnians. We even see it in different sects of the same basic religion (Catholics vs. Protestants in Ireland, Sunnis vs. Shiites in Iraq, and so on). To listen to the MSM, *any* religion will lead to power struggles and the resultant wars. Unfortunately, history shows that to have happened a lot.

The basic problem is power. There are too many people who will do anything for money and power. Shaping a national or ethnic consciousness about Your Everlasting Life is a very effective way to get people behind you. "I'm your saviour!", these people will say. "It's *their* fault that things are bad! Put me in power and I'll get rid of the cause for things being bad!" Hitler is perhaps the canonical example of our age. The Turks did it with the Armenians, the United States with the Native Americans, etc. Sadly, too often people buy it. They don't think. They fail to engage their reasonable faculties. And the next thing you know, people are getting killed.

You raised the point about media bias. I agree, there is certainly media bias. This is why I take a whole lot of what I see in the MSM with a grain of salt. For example, f I see CNN give a report, I'll look for a report on that same subject in Fox News, USA Today, the Washington Times, and the San Francisco Chronicle, for starters. Swap "CNN" and "Fox News" in the preceding sentence, and it's the same process. If it's all just quoting the same Associated Press article, then I look for other sources on that subject.

There's a Catholic guy that explained to me how he promotes his religion. He uses St. Francis's words as his guiding philosophy: "Preach the gospel! Preach the gospel! Preach the gospel! And if you have to, use words!" I find this applies as much to any other belief or position as it does a religious one. Sometimes that can be a little tough to remember, but none of us are perfect, least of all me. But I'm working at it.

LFS wrote:DK, how on Earth are the MSM gonna get us to buy their newspapers and watch their advertisements if they tell it like it is and don't over sensationalize stories?

+1

If extremists, Muslim or otherwise, do end up ruining this country, it will be because we let them.

Another +1

wbtrunx wrote:One of the issues I have is that there is a big push to whitewash every church as a money grabbing house of hypocrites and that worshiping with people who share similar beliefs at an appointed time in a sanctified building on a certain day of the week is unnecessary in personal spiritual growth.

Not every church is, I agree. But houses of worship, including churches, are big business. You ought to see the lavish, Taj Mahal-like spreads that are being built nowadays, and on extremely expensive land. And there are a lot of 'em, not just a few here and there. Not saying they don't have the right; they most emphatically do. But where the heck is all this money coming from? Gotta come from somewhere....

In the specific case of Christianity, the televangelists like Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, and Jim Bakker, just to name a few, didn't help either. My Dad told me about some of the crooked dealings he saw the leaders at his church engaging in when he was growing up, so this is nothing new. As I mentioned, religion has become really big business. I have personally seen far too many reverends, deacons, etc. riding around in brand-new Cadillacs and Lexuses when a four-year-old Honda Accord would do just fine.

This sort of thing drowns out those who act in the true kind spirit of the world's religions, like one Father Michael, a Catholic priest, that I knew some years back. He was just a regular guy, very nice dude, also very wise and street-smart. And the only thing he cared about for money was that the church--not he--had enough to preach the word of God with a roof of some kind over the worshippers's heads (this was in Seattle, where it rains a lot, so a roof matters). There are plenty of other Father Michaels out there, too. My readings of Billy Graham lead me to believe he is another such individual; the above "bad stuff" sure doesn't make his job any easier. A third was the now late Cardinal Avery Dulles, of the famous Dulles political family. He took an oath of poverty and lived as a fairly humble priest. If there actually is a Heaven, these three would probably end up there, whereas I don't believe Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, or Jim Bakker would be.

@LFS - no offense taken and you are absolutely correct...facts and run of the mill stories = fewer viewers...the bottom line runs all as does sensationalism....

@Cowboy - you're hitting on something I've been thinking about the last couple of weeks...extremism...which depends entirely on how you define it...different people in different situations define it different ways...

Case in point...extremism with Christianity...from different perspectives...all those who believe in the following or practice any of them will be defined as Christian extremists by someone somewhere...

- Snake handlers (nuff said)
- Faith healings
- Gifts of the spirit (speaking in tongues, etc)
- Jesus is the son of God
- Salvation and going to heaven

The last couple are often referred to as a "fairy tale" by unbelievers ergo those who truly believe are extremists...the Bible supports all of them in scripture to one degree or another. Think about how many Christians believe any or all and practice them...

Take speaking in tongues...how may millions of Christians actually believe that (I do) and practice it? How many unbelievers feel that to be extremist behavior....probably many...

When you begin to make similar comparisons in Islam (Sharia law for example) and a similar thesis/argument then things become a little clearer...at least they do in my mind...

So, lets take a basic concept of Islam...how to deal with an unbeliever...this is a basic concept that true believers of Islam accept...you and I see them as extreme...this is documented in the Quran by the way...

When faced with an unbeliever you shall treat them thusly...

-- Offer them the opportunity to convert to Islam. If they do then let them go their way...
-- If not, then give them an opportunity to pay a tribute..If they do then let them go their way...
-- If not then take up the sword against them...

So, extremism is relative to what you believe and what the other guy believes...

Only in this case, we have three guys...Christians...Islams...and those who truly believe neither...this last group can be subdivided as follows...those who tolerate no religion...those who tolerate only Christianity...those who tolerate only Islam...those who tolerate both...

zephyp wrote:Case in point...extremism with Christianity...from different perspectives...all those who believe in the following or practice any of them will be defined as Christian extremists by someone somewhere...

- Snake handlers (nuff said)
- Faith healings
- Gifts of the spirit (speaking in tongues, etc)
- Jesus is the son of God
- Salvation and going to heaven

The last couple are often referred to as a "fairy tale" by unbelievers ergo those who truly believe are extremists...the Bible supports all of them in scripture to one degree or another. Think about how many Christians believe any or all and practice them...

To the MSM, a Christian is an extremist if they believe those things. If you listen to the MSM, the only Muslims they label as extremist are those who blow themselves up on US soil. Dance in the streets post 9/11, not an extremist. Strap bombs to your 10 year old and send them into an Israeli market, not an extremist (clearly those Israelis shouldn't have been oppressing them).

Or course not all Muslim are extremist. If you define an extremist as someone who is willing to support or engage in religious killings, then statistically all the other religions of the world have virtually no extremists. Fundamentalist like some of the things Zephyp pointed out, sure, but virtually none of them support a religious war. This is what makes "Islam is the religion of peace" such a joke. How many of the Imams and other religious leaders here in the US have renounced Jihad? Not many. IIRC, the Imam behind the New York mosque has refused to do it.

gunderwood wrote:Or course not all Muslim are extremist. If you define an extremist as someone who is willing to support or engage in religious killings, then statistically all the other religions of the world have virtually no extremists. Fundamentalist like some of the things Zephyp pointed out, sure, but virtually none of them support a religious war. This is what makes "Islam is the religion of peace" such a joke. How many of the Imams and other religious leaders here in the US have renounced Jihad? Not many. IIRC, the Imam behind the New York mosque has refused to do it.

It seems that you can be labeled as an extremist merely for believing in some things. The MSM is trying to whitewash that wrt Islam...from another perspective -- if you are a Christian and believe the Bible do you believe the entire Bible...likewise, if you are a Muslim and believe the Quaran do you believe the whole Quaran...you dont have to be a genius for figure this out...

CowboyT wrote:

zephyp wrote:

This part.

Cowboy T your post should end this entire thread. The photo you posted is worth more than all the words written by all these erst while theologians and Islamic Scholars. Well done.
Gat6