Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Discussion about Curios and Relics and the special rules that apply to ownership and sale of these firearms.

Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby Kreutz » Sun, 12 Feb 2012 20:05:15

Saw a sweet deal on an SKS...of course, if I buy an SKS....I'm not certain I can resist the urge to fiddle with it....just so many choices.....can I legally do so if I use my C&R to get the SKS? :confused:


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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby OakRidgeStars » Sun, 12 Feb 2012 20:08:48

As long as you add the required US-made parts to comply with 922r.

http://www.tapco.com/section922r/


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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby Kreutz » Sun, 12 Feb 2012 20:14:27

OakRidgeStars wrote:As long as you add the required US-made parts to comply with 922r.

http://www.tapco.com/section922r/



So if I read this right I have carte blanche as long as I omit foreign parts?

Is this also true for C&R specifically? I mean, it does seem to violate the spirit of the concept to trick it out. :confused:


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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby OakRidgeStars » Sun, 12 Feb 2012 20:53:01

Not all firearms that fall into the C&R category have as many upgrade options as the SKS. Most people want to upgrade the SKS' stock, hand guard and add a removable duckbill magazine. In order to keep the SKS in compliance with 922r, they would also have to add additional US-made parts. Or not modify it at all.

As far as other C&R firearms go, 922r could apply if they are foreign made. Some firearms on the C&R list are made in the US.

I don't think there is any correlation between 922r and C&R firearms. It's just that some foreign made guns on the C&R list require the owner to comply with 922r if they choose to modify them from their original configuration. The SKS is just one example.


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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby Afrikaner82 » Tue, 10 Jul 2012 11:03:55

Usually 922r applies to new made firearms or parts kits. As to C&R it is only C&R if it is in the original configuration meaning factory. You can buy one and modify and do what ever you want to it but if you want to sell it to another C&R holder as a curious and relic firearm you have to take it back to factory configuration.

If you don't care then you can make permanent mods to it but after that it is not a C&R firearm anymore.
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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby jdonovan » Tue, 10 Jul 2012 12:09:29

Back up a moment here folks. 922 ONLY applies to firearms built AFTER 922 became law.

The original question, yes you can use your C&R to get the SKS.

IF you fiddle with it sufficiently you can remove its C&R status.


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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby Diomed » Wed, 11 Jul 2012 01:36:31

jdonovan wrote:Back up a moment here folks. 922 ONLY applies to firearms built AFTER 922 became law.

Whoa there. That is not correct. It applies to firearms (shotguns and semiautomatic rifles) assembled in the US after it became law, including imports, otherwise people could de-ban early MAK-90s or Yugo SKSs without worrying about the part count:

18 USC 922(r) wrote:It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes...

And the implementing regulation is more specific:
27 CFR 478.39 wrote: (a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:

(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or

(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the provisions of ยง478.151; or

(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.

If it was imported or assembled after 11/30/90, you're SOL. 922(r) applies if the firearm is re-assembled into a non-importable configuration (since it couldn't be imported in the first place in a noncompliant format).


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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby jdonovan » Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:04:44

Diomed wrote:
jdonovan wrote:Back up a moment here folks. 922 ONLY applies to firearms built AFTER 922 became law.

Whoa there. That is not correct. It applies to firearms (shotguns and semiautomatic rifles) assembled in the US after it became law, including imports, otherwise people could de-ban early MAK-90s or Yugo SKSs without worrying about the part count:


forgot about C&Rs getting around the import ban.


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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby Kreutz » Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:14:30

Seemed like a headache, so I decided the easiest thing to do was save my money and just not buy an SKS.


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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby Purdune » Mon, 22 Apr 2013 00:22:37

Ugh all the information on the internet is hurting my head.

Ok so when this law says "assemble" they mean any modification to your weapon means that your "assembling" a new weapon? I bought a VEPR recently. I want to add a sling and a flash suppressor. I'm assuming the sling is no worry however do I have to replace a bunch of parts with "made in the USA" to add a flash suppressor? The barrel is threaded but has been capped with a welded pin.

What if I wanted to add a suppressor? I believe this needs some sort of gun tax stamp but what do I do? No I'm not looking to do sniper work in the middle of the night. My VEPR is chambered in 7062.54r and can drown out the Marines near by... Trying to save my ears and be a good neighbor on the rifle range.


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I'm sorry can you restate the question please?

Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby jdonovan » Mon, 22 Apr 2013 05:59:31

Purdune wrote:Ok so when this law says "assemble" they mean any modification to your weapon means that your "assembling" a new weapon?


Changing a 'countable' part counts as assembly.

I'm assuming the sling is no worry


not a countable part, so it doesn't count for/against you.

however do I have to replace a bunch of parts with "made in the USA" to add a flash suppressor?
The barrel is threaded but has been capped with a welded pin.

This sounds like it may have been imported in a 'sporting' configuration... i.e. not more than 2 evil features... pistol grip, > 10 round mag, threaded muzzle.... etc.

If this is the case, and you want to add an evil feature back, then you need to get, and stay 922 compliant, which means not more than 10 non-USA made parts.


What if I wanted to add a suppressor? I believe this needs some sort of gun tax stamp but what do I do?


Once the gun is 922 compliant, just screw it on to the muzzle.

Now acquiring the suppressor is where the tax stamp and the NFA come into play. Search the net. There are millions, perhaps more, articles out there on how to buy suppressors.


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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby Taggure » Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:39:21

Kreutz wrote:Saw a sweet deal on an SKS...of course, if I buy an SKS....I'm not certain I can resist the urge to fiddle with it....just so many choices.....can I legally do so if I use my C&R to get the SKS? :confused:


Here is my 922R compliant rebuild thread

http://vagunforum.net/post113612.html?hilit=sks#p113612
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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby Purdune » Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:39:35

Thanks!,
So for a recap,

1) changing or adding any part that is on the list counts as "assembling" a weapon.
2) If you change or add any part on the list you may then only have 10 of those items that are foreign even if you had more then 10 items to begin with.

Another assumption on my part in that I have a pistol grip. It's incorporated into the rear stock by means of a large thumb hole. Going to just assume if some would say it's a pistol grip, the ATF will. Seems like instead of outlawing stuff they just make it expensive and hard to do. Nice...

Thanks again!


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I'm sorry can you restate the question please?

Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby jdonovan » Mon, 22 Apr 2013 10:12:04

Purdune wrote:1) changing or adding any part that is on the list counts as "assembling" a weapon.

yes
2) If you change or add any part on the list you may then only have 10 of those items that are foreign even if you had more then 10 items to begin with.


not quite...

you only need to meet the 10 parts rule if you alter a post-import ban rifle to a non-sporting configuration.


Another assumption on my part in that I have a pistol grip. It's incorporated into the rear stock by means of a large thumb hole. Going to just assume if some would say it's a pistol grip, the ATF will.


you would be wrong to make that assumption. But it gives me enough data to answer some things.

So it appears your VEPR has a pinned flash hider, and a thumb-hole stock, and I'm going to assume high cap mags. So this makes it a 'sporting' rifle, because you only have 1 evil feature (the high cap mag). Therefore the rifle doesn't have to have ANY USA made parts.

If you change it to a non-sporting config... add a pistol grip, or thread the barrel (or expose the threads that are there), then you need to add USA made parts so you get to not more than 10 non-USA parts.


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Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby Purdune » Mon, 22 Apr 2013 21:48:32

Ok I think I see what your saying. The legal stuff makes my head turn and I love playing games with complicated rules.

It only has 5 round mags but must admit I don't know what "high cap" count is. You can purchase 10 round and of course once you have the mag well you can put whatever count you can make/buy a mag for.

Should have done this earlier but here is what I have:

http://centerfiresystems.com/AKAGUN-VEPR-54R-02IS.aspx

Thanks again, I know you must answer the same questions over and over. I owe you a bourbon!


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I'm sorry can you restate the question please?

Re: Can I alter a C&R weapon?

Postby jdonovan » Tue, 23 Apr 2013 05:58:56

The legal stuff makes my head turn and I love playing games with complicated rules

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

Remember ATFE gets to 'interpret' the law, and VERY OFTEN changes their mind.

Purdune wrote:It only has 5 round mags but must admit I don't know what "high cap" count is.

under federal rules, 10 rounds

Thanks again, I know you must answer the same questions over and over.

Generally, we want to help folks around here, and make sure you do the right things.

Its kind of amazing that law makers have so twisted the rules on some firearms, that it is very easy to make a mistake and wind up with an improper configuration.

I owe you a bourbon!

Sweet!


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