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Private businesses with "no carry" signs

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Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby dorminWS » Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:31:19

I guess I'm going to be the skunk at the party on this one, guys.

The 2nd Amendment exists to protect your right to keep and bear arms from being interfered with BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. A property owner or business operator is perfectly within his or her rights to post a rule prohibiting carrying (concealed or openly) firearms on the premises they own or otherwise lawfully occupy. If you don't like that, you don't have to go there. If you want to boycott them, be my guest, but it seems to me that people who don't want guns are just as free not to have them on property they own/control as the rest of us are to have them in places where private property rights don't prohibit it.

It doesn't make me mad to see such a sign. I carry only infrequently even though I have a CCW permit. I always have not one but two guns in the console of my Tahoe. On occasion, I will feel it prudent to slip my Sig P238 into my pocket before I leave the car. The Tarus Judge I always leave in the car and always would unless there is already a shootin' war/rabid animal/2-legged snake real close by that I can't just drive away from and need to protect myself from. If a merchant or proprietor decides they don't want a store/restaurant full of loaded firearms and posts a prohibition, I have no problem with complying. I ain't a damn bit afraid to venture out unarmed. I have even posted at my own business that no firearms may be carried without prior written permission of management. That gives me an advantage (sometimes, hopefully, maybe) should trouble erupt there. I run the joint. I should be entitled to do that if I want. Anybody that doesn't like it doesn't have to come around - it's a free country. My second amendment rights do not extend to private property without the acquiescence of the owner.
"The Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference."
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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby newdovo » Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:17:05

dorminWS wrote:I have even posted at my own business that no firearms may be carried without prior written permission of management. That gives me an advantage (sometimes, hopefully, maybe) should trouble erupt there.

I agree that private business owners are allowed to prohibit the carrying of a gun into their business. The law says that they can.
But I question what you think your advantage is going to be if trouble erupts. Does trouble mean illegal activity, like a robbery or someone threatening your life? If this is the case, a trouble maker of the criminal type will ignore your sign.
The people heeding your sign will do one of several things... 1)ask for your written permission, 2)disarm and come back (like you do at other businesses), or 3)just leave. But these are not the people you should worry about. These are not people looking for trouble. These are the people who take laws seriously, as all of us here do. I would want one of these folks around if "trouble erupted."
Do you believe that a sign posted is going to make you the only one there with a gun, if you do keep one there? Respectfully, I'd reconsider this.

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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby Chasbo00 » Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:20:55

I don't always carry; but when I do, I prefer Walther.

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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby gunderwood » Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:30:16

newdovo wrote:
dorminWS wrote:I have even posted at my own business that no firearms may be carried without prior written permission of management. That gives me an advantage (sometimes, hopefully, maybe) should trouble erupt there.

I agree that private business owners are allowed to prohibit the carrying of a gun into their business. The law says that they can.
But I question what you think your advantage is going to be if trouble erupts. Does trouble mean illegal activity, like a robbery or someone threatening your life? If this is the case, a trouble maker of the criminal type will ignore your sign.
The people heeding your sign will do one of several things... 1)ask for your written permission, 2)disarm and come back (like you do at other businesses), or 3)just leave. But these are not the people you should worry about. These are not people looking for trouble. These are the people who take laws seriously, as all of us here do. I would want one of these folks around if "trouble erupted."
Do you believe that a sign posted is going to make you the only one there with a gun, if you do keep one there? Respectfully, I'd reconsider this.

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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby gunderwood » Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:34:52

dorminWS wrote:I guess I'm going to be the skunk at the party on this one, guys.

Why do you think that?

I can't think of anyone who has ever argued otherwise around here. The closest thing I can recall was a thread asking about if nothing is posted, should you ask for permission. That was focused more in homes than businesses, but both are private property. If someone posts a sign or doesn't want me on carrying on their property than I can disarm or just no go there anymore.
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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby Yarddawg » Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:04:07

Chasbo00 wrote:I don't always carry; but when I do, I prefer Walther.

Aim well my friends.


That has got to be the BEST response I have seen from anyone on here! :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:
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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby OakRidgeStars » Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:30:29

Good one :hysterical:
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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby dorminWS » Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:00:15

quote]
Do you believe that a sign posted is going to make you the only one there with a gun, if you do keep one there? Respectfully, I'd reconsider this.

Parry[/quote]
+1[/quote]

I believe my sign will get rid of all but the crazies. The disgruntled, the troublemakers, those nursing a grudge - - there's a lot of folks like that that care enough about staying out of trouble and/or keeping a CCW permit NOT to get in trouble by breaking the law; and they'll stay away, which means they won't show up, get started arguing, and lose control. I think that's a significant reduction in the risk of serious trouble. The ones who are just crazy or hellbent on doing mayhem and/or murder won't be discouraged. There's nothing any of us can do about them; except be ready.
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Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby gunderwood » Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:15:51

dorminWS wrote:quote]
Do you believe that a sign posted is going to make you the only one there with a gun, if you do keep one there? Respectfully, I'd reconsider this.

Parry

+1[/quote]

I believe my sign will get rid of all but the crazies. The disgruntled, the troublemakers, those nursing a grudge - - there's a lot of folks like that that care enough about staying out of trouble and/or keeping a CCW permit NOT to get in trouble by breaking the law; and they'll stay away, which means they won't show up, get started arguing, and lose control. I think that's a significant reduction in the risk of serious trouble. The ones who are just crazy or hellbent on doing mayhem and/or murder won't be discouraged. There's nothing any of us can do about them; except be ready.[/quote]

If your sign deters them because they care about the law or at least staying out of trouble, why would they not be capable of remaining law-abiding and carrying? I.e. Trespassing is a misdemeanor and carries much less punishment than unlawful use of a firearm, so if they respect the sign shouldn't they also respect the laws against brandishing or murder?
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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby newdovo » Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:33:08

dorminWS wrote:I believe my sign will get rid of all but the crazies. The disgruntled, the troublemakers, those nursing a grudge - - there's a lot of folks like that that care enough about staying out of trouble and/or keeping a CCW permit NOT to get in trouble by breaking the law; and they'll stay away, which means they won't show up, get started arguing, and lose control. I think that's a significant reduction in the risk of serious trouble. The ones who are just crazy or hellbent on doing mayhem and/or murder won't be discouraged. There's nothing any of us can do about them; except be ready.

I understand. There are some who have never been convicted of a crime and are therefore able to legally carry a firearm openly or, through the proper channels, concealed. And your concern is that there may be an individual in that group (disgruntled, troublemaker, grudge) who hangs on the fence, teetering, and will decide when he's in your establishment, gun in tow, that that will be the moment that he falls over to the side of lawbreaker or crazy.
Interesting...


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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby WRW » Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:35:05

dorminWS wrote:quote]
Do you believe that a sign posted is going to make you the only one there with a gun, if you do keep one there? Respectfully, I'd reconsider this.

Parry

+1[/quote]

I believe my sign will get rid of all but the crazies. The disgruntled, the troublemakers, those nursing a grudge - - there's a lot of folks like that that care enough about staying out of trouble and/or keeping a CCW permit NOT to get in trouble by breaking the law; and they'll stay away, which means they won't show up, get started arguing, and lose control. I think that's a significant reduction in the risk of serious trouble. The ones who are just crazy or hellbent on doing mayhem and/or murder won't be discouraged. There's nothing any of us can do about them; except be ready.[/quote]

That seems to me to be a somewhat convoluted logic. Did I miss what business you are running?


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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby dorminWS » Thu, 13 Jan 2011 19:51:23

I didn't say what my business is, and won't. The logic isn't convoluted. Constitutional rights apply to everybody. We're all born with them. Sadly, some of us (like that idiot in Arizona) just aren't born capable of discharging the responsibility that comes with those rights. Then there are those (to which I referred earlier) who are on the ragged edge. Always in an argument/fight - can't hold a job due to issues with authority - - dissafected because their lack of education and/or training keeps them poor andf underemployed; and blaming those more fortunate. They're the ones who may be OK until their dying day - - just miserable gripers and whiners who never amounted to much. Or, they might get pushed (or push themselves) over the edge and become a felon (or whatever kind of mental defect the liberals are about to try to exclude from 2nd Amendment rights). I know several folks that I know beyond doubt carry weapons that I think are a few face cards shy of a deck. I would exclude them, if it was my call, from the august company of those entitled to bear arms. But it ain't my call, and it shouldn't be. When we recognize it as a constitutional right, we confer it on everybody unless and until he/she does something to forfiet that right. It's just the risk that's attendant to living in a free society. I'm willing to take that risk. But I'm also not above cutting it when and where I can. Yes, I am saying that there are a lot of folks out there that haven't got the character and intellect I'd like all gun carriers to have. If that makes me an elitist, so be it. But I think I'm just a realist. I'm not an elitist unless I'm willing to take away their rights based upon my opinion of their capacity (like the liberal are).
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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby Yarddawg » Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:19:43

It's your business, you can handle this issue as you please. IMHO, you are doing yourself and your customers a disservice with this policy. But as I said, it's your business.

I find it curious that you post here about your policy for your business, then state "I didn't say what my business is, and won't."
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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby gunderwood » Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:52:05

dorminWS wrote:I didn't say what my business is, and won't. The logic isn't convoluted. Constitutional rights apply to everybody. We're all born with them. Sadly, some of us (like that idiot in Arizona) just aren't born capable of discharging the responsibility that comes with those rights. Then there are those (to which I referred earlier) who are on the ragged edge. Always in an argument/fight - can't hold a job due to issues with authority - - dissafected because their lack of education and/or training keeps them poor andf underemployed; and blaming those more fortunate. They're the ones who may be OK until their dying day - - just miserable gripers and whiners who never amounted to much. Or, they might get pushed (or push themselves) over the edge and become a felon (or whatever kind of mental defect the liberals are about to try to exclude from 2nd Amendment rights). I know several folks that I know beyond doubt carry weapons that I think are a few face cards shy of a deck. I would exclude them, if it was my call, from the august company of those entitled to bear arms. But it ain't my call, and it shouldn't be. When we recognize it as a constitutional right, we confer it on everybody unless and until he/she does something to forfiet that right. It's just the risk that's attendant to living in a free society. I'm willing to take that risk. But I'm also not above cutting it when and where I can. Yes, I am saying that there are a lot of folks out there that haven't got the character and intellect I'd like all gun carriers to have. If that makes me an elitist, so be it. But I think I'm just a realist. I'm not an elitist unless I'm willing to take away their rights based upon my opinion of their capacity (like the liberal are).

I think you misunderstood the convoluted comment.

The poster and I were not questioning your right to post such a sign on your private property, we were questioning the rational you posted for why you did post such a sign. You started the thread for discussion, we are discussing.

The logic we are questioning is why you feel that someone who is "on the edge" would mind a sign (misdemeanor at best) when you are afraid they will start a fight or kill someone. That seems odd that you get some comfort knowing that you have banned them from your business, but if they are on the edge and brought a gun they likely won't give one hoot about your sign. Irrational people don't worry about silly little things like your no firearms sign.

That is why he said the logic is convoluted and I agree. You can't rationally argue that your sign stops people who are on the edge and about to commit a crime far worse than trespassing.

As a side note, I try my hardest to not spend money in any store with such a sign. I respect the owners right to post it, but it is my money and as such I spend it elsewhere if possible.
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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby WRW » Thu, 13 Jan 2011 22:10:17

LOL! Yes, i thought the type of business might affect the decision making process, but oh well...

As for exercising your rights as a property owner, carry on. Nice that we have those rights too.


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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby dorminWS » Fri, 14 Jan 2011 12:04:04

I wasn't taking offense at anything anybody said. I didn't think anyone was questioning my right to post a policy. I was just trying to explain my rationale. It's based upon what I have observed over the years. That experience tells me there is value in keeping people with limited capacity to cope with stress, anger and confrontation out of situations where it might confront them.

It may be that my experience is colored by the fact that this part of the world I live in has more than it's fair share of cross-eyed inbreds with just barely enough sense to get a driver's license.

No need for anybody to get all aereated. It's just my opinion.
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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby gunderwood » Fri, 14 Jan 2011 15:51:55

dorminWS wrote:I was just trying to explain my rationale. It's based upon what I have observed over the years. That experience tells me there is value in keeping people with limited capacity to cope with stress, anger and confrontation out of situations where it might confront them.

No problem, but it still doesn't answer the question we were asking. Why do you think your sign has any impact on someone who is looking to harm another person? Anyone looking to do that won't care about your sign. Or put a different way, your sign only keeps out people who care that you posted it and those aren't the people you should be worrying about.
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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby Vahunter » Fri, 14 Jan 2011 17:34:31

Sure do wish you'd post your buisness so we could add it to the firearm unfriendly list. :whistle:


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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby OakRidgeStars » Fri, 14 Jan 2011 18:34:20

Just look for the sign :whistle:
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Re: Private businesses with "no carry" signs

Postby davasmith » Fri, 14 Jan 2011 19:45:10

dorminWS wrote:quote]
Do you believe that a sign posted is going to make you the only one there with a gun, if you do keep one there? Respectfully, I'd reconsider this.

Parry

+1[/quote]

I believe my sign will get rid of all but the crazies. The disgruntled, the troublemakers, those nursing a grudge - - there's a lot of folks like that that care enough about staying out of trouble and/or keeping a CCW permit NOT to get in trouble by breaking the law; and they'll stay away, which means they won't show up, get started arguing, and lose control. I think that's a significant reduction in the risk of serious trouble. The ones who are just crazy or hellbent on doing mayhem and/or murder won't be discouraged. There's nothing any of us can do about them; except be ready.[/quote]
Excuse my ignorance, but what kind of business do you have that crazy, angry, grudge holding people would unlawfully enter armed though a sign advised against it? Respectfully asked :confused:


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