Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

kps wrote:

TenchCoxe wrote:

whplanet wrote:
there are various places you're "not supposed to" carry a gun.

a church while services are being held

how about at church with preachers permission, with the preacher & several other members usually carrying as well. rural location, & services start at 7pm & usually ending towards midnight. only 1 outside light, & in sight of an apartment complex down hillside on road over which is a known bad drug area, & used to have lots of shootings, landlord has cleaned it up some in last few years, but still bad area.

have had several "guys" hassling the women folk, because theyre women, as well as begging for rides or money at near midnight. this Church opened officially last year, & not had any real incidents yet, but preacher said if a problem comes into service, he is going after & for us to back him up if necessary.

so I say it is a fine line, but we have just cause, I think? & at least 6 or 7 people carry including me, that I know of.

O.K. - here's the drill:

The Virginia Code says the following:

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

Note that it makes it illegal to carry a gun in a church while in service, unless you have "good and sufficient reason." It does not say, "unless the preacher says it's ok" or anything like that. So preacher's permission is nice, but the preacher doesn't have the legal authority to allow you to violate a Virginia statute. NOW, I'm not saying that you would be violating the statute - simply making the point that the preacher's permission doesn't get you there.

The key is "good and sufficient reason." What is "good and sufficient reason" to carry a gun during church services? That always has been the question with this provision. And there is an argument to be made (not saying it's a winning one) that the statute is unconstitutionally vague.

Fortunately for us, earlier this year, Ken Cuccinelli, Attorney General of Virginia, issued an opinion stating "It is my opinion that carrying a weapon for personal protection constitutes a good and sufficient reason under the statute to carry a weapon into a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held there." Which is nice, because it is the state's top lawyer saying his legal opinion is that carrying for personal protection in church is ok.

Keep in mind, however, that an AG opinion is not binding on a court. So a judge will consider the AG's opinion and take it under advisement, but he or she is free to disagree and find that personal protection is not "good and sufficient" enough. The AG opinion is good to have, but ultimately it would come down to a court determining what "good and sufficient reason" means and whether "we wanted to be safe in case a bad guy did something bad" is one.

kps wrote:how about at church with preachers permission,

The law says:
If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

IMHO self defense, is a good and sufficient reason. If the pastor says yes even better. If you can get the pastor to put it in writing then you don't suffer from the "I never said that" after-the-fact.

If you're carrying concealed in church, then it shouldn't be known that you're carrying. If an occasion arises that requires you to draw your gun, then it should be obvious that you have "good and sufficient" reason. So unless you're one of the types that can't keep your own business to yourself, I don't see the problem.

Sensai wrote:If you're carrying concealed in church, then it shouldn't be known that you're carrying. If an occasion arises that requires you to draw your gun, then it should be obvious that you have "good and sufficient" reason. So unless you're one of the types that can't keep your own business to yourself, I don't see the problem.

No offense intended Gary, but I have a difficult time understanding how asking the gubmint for permission to carry concealed is keeping my business to myself. Oh, don't forget, not only must I ask Mother may I, I also get the pleasure of paying a periodic tax to exercise a constitutional right!

I understand what you were meaning (if concealed, no one should know that I am carrying), and I have no real problem with that. I would LOVE to keep my business to myself to include not asking permission.

Again, there is no disrespect intended towards you Gary.

jdonovan wrote:

kps wrote:how about at church with preachers permission,

The law says:
If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

IMHO self defense, is a good and sufficient reason. If the pastor says yes even better. If you can get the pastor to put it in writing then you don't suffer from the "I never said that" after-the-fact.

I carry a knife to church all the time. Even though I want to carry my weapon, the self defense clause doesn't work. Me because my university doesn't allow concealed carry inside, only outside...

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What kind of knife? If it is a bowie knife, dagger, dirk or weapon of like kind, you can't legally carry it concealed, church or anywhere else. That is a separate code provision.

If it's not a "weapon" knife, then no big deal. I pretty much have never been without a pocket knife in my pocket since I was about 12 years old. Except when flying on commercial aircraft after 9/11/01, of course.

Sensai wrote:If you're carrying concealed in church, then it shouldn't be known that you're carrying. If an occasion arises that requires you to draw your gun, then it should be obvious that you have "good and sufficient" reason. So unless you're one of the types that can't keep your own business to yourself, I don't see the problem.

alot of us know each other outside church, & after a few minor incidents, preacher commented about having a 38 snubie in his boot just in case, & he is very open about this, & most members know, & no one has took one out to show it off period, I have seen the preacers at his home, as well as he has seen both of mine, at my home.

when I first started attending this one I left mine in my truck, but I was asked to carry, & have every since.

they have many functions, helping people in need, & fund raisers, or to raise awreness for a need or cause, or just band practice, & he wont allow the women to be there alone without at least 1 armed member, & at least 2 women carry.

also the "church" is not labeled a church, it is labeled a Ministry, to avoid the political B.S. but in all essence it is a church. so that may have some bearing?

It doesn't matter whether you call it a "church" or whether it has a sign on it saying "church." The statute applies to "a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place."

All that it needs to be is a "place of worship" during a time when a "meeting for religious purposes" is being held there.

And again, it doesn't matter whether the preacher knows about it or has given you permission. And we all might agree amongst ourselves that carrying for self-defense is "good and sufficient reason," but what we all agree on amongst ourselves also doesn't matter.

As stated above, the Virginia Attorney General has opined that carrying for self-defense is good and sufficient reason, and that's a good thing to have. But there are no guarantees in life, and there's no guaranteeing that someone might somehow find out or discover that a person is carrying a concealed gun in church, and some overzealous commonwealth's attorney might decide that he or she disagrees with the Attorney General.

As with everything else, your course of action is up to you to choose.

Wherever two or more are gathered in His Name...

Palladin wrote:Wherever two or more are gathered in His Name...

that would then make it illegal to have a gun in my home when having a person or 2 over discussing religion? or when we go to preachers or others home for a meet, ot cookeout, or such?

Randy

kps wrote:

Palladin wrote:Wherever two or more are gathered in His Name...

that would then make it illegal to have a gun in my home when having a person or 2 over discussing religion? or when we go to preachers or others home for a meet, ot cookeout, or such?

Randy

Ya, only sinners can have guns!

That is a really really broad brush. Theoretically it could be applied to my kitchen when my children and I sit down and do our bible work each day. You know I am going to say concealed is concealed and leave it at that. If you are going to carry at church (which I highly support) conceal deep and don't let anyone know. I suspect if you had to use your weapon the fact that you were at a place of worship will be the least of your problems.