Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Moccasin » Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:14:11

alby wrote:Patriot Center is on GMU property right? Doesn't school regulation really dictate the law on that business?


If the Patriot Center is owned by GMU but leased to a company or business to operate it, then the operator has the right to ban firearms. If it is operated by the school I would think the school could ban firearms in certain buildings without banning them on campus and still be within the AG opinion.

Alby, this wording "Any business that sells or provides a service to the general public shall not pass policies which infringe on the rights granted by the state" would infringe on the rights of the property owners. Should we infringe on one's rights in order to protect someone elses?


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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby alby » Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:06:13

You can add Regal Theaters to that list. Here is a No Guns Posting on the front of their
doors leading into the movie theater in Brambleton, Virginia.

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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby alby » Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:20:10

Moccasin wrote:Should we infringe on one's rights in order to protect someone elses?


That is a good question. The way I look at it, is that a business operates within the state of Virginia.
If, within that state, they choose to sell and/or provide services to citizens of Virginia in a public
arrangement, they should have to abide by the laws drafted by Virginians. Since the business is on private
property, the owner does have a right to either not run a business or to restrict the business's clientele
to a pre-approved membership arrangement. In which, only members of the business can conduct business
there, thus negating their impact of providing or selling services to the general public.

So for instance, a grocery store which sells goods to everybody would be have to abide by the law in allowing
CHP holders to carry on their premise. Yet if that same grocery store restricted sales to members only, then
CHP holders could be barred from the premise. Overall, the point I'm getting at is that such an arrangement
would force businesses to choose between allowing CHP holders free reign of their establishment so long as
they cater to the general public. If they wish to block CHP holders, they would have to restrict general public
access to a more controlled Member's Only access. Thus in effect restricting their market and potential
profits in exchange for restricting CHP holders.

I wouldn't consider it a property rights restriction, because in the case of alcohol, if you throw a party
on your own private property, you are required to obtain a Banquet License from ABC. Otherwise, you
are in violation of the law. In my example, a business would have to allow CHP holders to carry firearms
if they are allowing the general public unrestricted access to their establishment.
--
Banquet (also known as one-day) licenses are issued to individuals for private events where alcohol is provided at no charge to guests, such as wedding receptions, retirement parties, etc.
http://www.abc.state.va.us/licensing/banquet.htm
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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Dragonfly » Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:51:34

Here is a link from OC.org http://friendorfoe.thesecond.us/Default.aspx Think the author had the right idea
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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Gunguy » Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:46:18

RUNIONS GUNS in Harrisonburg. No loaded firearms allowed, no concealed carry allowed!


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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby JacobDW » Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:06:21

Add Tysons Corner to that list, they prohibt "all firearms and implements intended for harm"


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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Moccasin » Mon, 13 Apr 2009 06:49:54

alby wrote:
Moccasin wrote:Should we infringe on one's rights in order to protect someone elses?


That is a good question. The way I look at it, is that a business operates within the state of Virginia.
If, within that state, they choose to sell and/or provide services to citizens of Virginia in a public
arrangement, they should have to abide by the laws drafted by Virginians. Since the business is on private
property, the owner does have a right to either not run a business or to restrict the business's clientele
to a pre-approved membership arrangement. In which, only members of the business can conduct business
there, thus negating their impact of providing or selling services to the general public.

So for instance, a grocery store which sells goods to everybody would be have to abide by the law in allowing
CHP holders to carry on their premise. Yet if that same grocery store restricted sales to members only, then
CHP holders could be barred from the premise. Overall, the point I'm getting at is that such an arrangement
would force businesses to choose between allowing CHP holders free reign of their establishment so long as
they cater to the general public. If they wish to block CHP holders, they would have to restrict general public
access to a more controlled Member's Only access. Thus in effect restricting their market and potential
profits in exchange for restricting CHP holders.

I wouldn't consider it a property rights restriction, because in the case of alcohol, if you throw a party
on your own private property, you are required to obtain a Banquet License from ABC. Otherwise, you
are in violation of the law. In my example, a business would have to allow CHP holders to carry firearms
if they are allowing the general public unrestricted access to their establishment.
--
Banquet (also known as one-day) licenses are issued to individuals for private events where alcohol is provided at no charge to guests, such as wedding receptions, retirement parties, etc.
http://www.abc.state.va.us/licensing/banquet.htm
--


I think you are confusing the right to keep and bear arms with the privilege of carrying a concealed weapon. According to section 18.2-308 of the Virginia Code (a law drafted by Virginians) it is entirely possible to be refused a CHP while not loosing your right to keep and bear arms, sounds to me like a privilege. So using the CHP doesn’t fit as I see it. Oh, and that same section of code specifies that it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon on private property when prohibited by the owner or when signs are posted. The code does not differentiate between the private property of a business and that of an individual.

Now if you want to replace CHP holders with those who OC then you’re logic regarding rights would apply. Be careful though, in applying that logic you open the door for anyone to exercise any of their rights on that private business property. For example, instead of exercising their right to carry a firearm they could exercise their right to free speech. So while you get to carry your firearm, PETA gets to do their thing at any business they want to, and the business cannot have them removed or arrested for trespassing because they are exercising their 1A rights just like those who OC are exercising their 2A rights.

There also is a problem with certain businesses being privately held and operating out of a home. How would this proposed law affect these businesses? Would anyone visiting their property now be open to exercising any of their rights on that property or would it only be those there on business? If only those there on business can exercise their rights in such a way, how would the owner determine who is there on business? Would asking a single business related question qualify someone as being there on business?

And for those businesses that are not privately held, how many would leave the state because they have lost all control of their property? Most, if not all, I’d bet.


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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Dragonfly » Fri, 08 May 2009 21:10:27

Add one to the Plus List.
Went to TGI Friddays for lunch today and saw this sign posted on the inside door at 10301 Midlothian Tpke, Chesterfield County
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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Moccasin » Fri, 08 May 2009 21:42:24

Ummmm, I don't see what the problem is Dragonfly. Most of us can't carry concealed weapons in TGIFridays with or without that sign, only LEO, Judges, etc. can. It says nothing about open carry. Not saying we can open carry there, just that the sign doesn't prohibit it. (TGIFridays does serve alcohol, I think)


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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Dragonfly » Fri, 08 May 2009 21:55:25

This one is ABC on but I wonder if LEO or Commonwealth Attorneys are exempt or
if this sign means "Private Property and I make the rules"
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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Moccasin » Fri, 08 May 2009 22:11:59

Since I am not LEO, Commonwealths Attorney, etc. I don't pay much attention to what they can do and what they can't, but I would hope that this makes it illegal for them to CC. Since this TGIF serves alcohol, and I believe they all do, this sign would have no effect on me. If I wanted to eat there (a place I usually do not eat) I would OC and see what the outcome was. Possibly, and this is a stretch, this store is supporting those of us who cannot CC there because of aclohol.


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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby NewColonial » Sat, 09 May 2009 09:19:38

The sign INSIDE the entrance Spotsylvania Mall - Fredericksburg currently says something along the lines of no guns except as allowed by law. CCW is allowed by law, so that means to me that only illegal weapons are banned.
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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Moccasin » Sat, 09 May 2009 09:47:21

NewColonial wrote:The sign INSIDE the entrance Spotsylvania Mall - Fredericksburg currently says something along the lines of no guns except as allowed by law. CCW is allowed by law, so that means to me that only illegal weapons are banned.


Makes perfect sense to me, and I wouldn't ask for clarification either. I think some places put up signs to make the sheeple feel good about being there, knowing all the while that they are not actually limiting anything.


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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby allingeneral » Sat, 09 May 2009 09:57:08

NewColonial wrote:The sign INSIDE the entrance Spotsylvania Mall - Fredericksburg currently says something along the lines of no guns except as allowed by law. CCW is allowed by law, so that means to me that only illegal weapons are banned.


I was carrying last weekend and my wife and I went to the Spotsy Mall. I assumed that CCW was prohibited, so I left my sidearm in the truck. I read the sign when I got inside the door and I almost went back to the truck to re-arm myself, but since it was a short stop at Dick's, I just went unarmed. Next time I visit Spotsy Mall will be a different story.

Would definitely make me feel more comfortable walking through that gang of hoodlums that congregates at the front entrance to the mall. I wish they'd run those kids off.

In light of this information, I have removed Spotsylvania Mall from the list.
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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby NewColonial » Sat, 09 May 2009 22:03:52

I recently approached one of the Spotsy "mall cops" and told him about a car load of hoodlums that were harassing people at the front entrance. The guy was afraid to go outside and just looked at them thru the door. My son and I left via a different entrance.
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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Moccasin » Sat, 09 May 2009 22:14:15

NewColonial wrote:I recently approached one of the Spotsy "mall cops" and told him about a car load of hoodlums that were harassing people at the front entrance. The guy was afraid to go outside and just looked at them thru the door. My son and I left via a different entrance.


Isn't that how it usually is? Rent-a-cops don't want to take risks.


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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Bob » Sat, 09 May 2009 23:01:20

I recently approached one of the Spotsy "mall cops" and told him about a car load of hoodlums that were harassing people at the front entrance. The guy was afraid to go outside and just looked at them thru the door. My son and I left via a different entrance.


This is why everyone needs to carry, you have to look out for your self, even out here in the boonies it's getting bad.

I never used to worry about going to town, but not anymore it's getting bad every where, you ought to see some of the characters hanging out in this little burg. I'm retired these people are young, how come they aren't working or in school, it's getting so you can't even go to the farm store without running into them.

Maybe it's just me, they all look to me like they are looking for trouble. Maybe I'm just getting old.
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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Moccasin » Sat, 09 May 2009 23:21:33

It's not you Bob. These kids today expect things to be handed to them instead of working for it, that's why they can waste their time hanging out at a mall or store.

I was thinking the same as you, everyone needs to carry because of this and it should be OC not CC. And along with a handgun we should all carry a piece of bamboo (got a lot near me) to swat them with.


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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby goodoleboy » Sun, 10 May 2009 00:07:40

As a memeber of the younger generation I can say that not all of us are like that. I myself had a job but got fired due to the economy, and I DO plan on OC my lovely .380 the day I turn 21....only 3 years left


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Re: Firearm Unfriendly Businesses in Virginia

Postby Moccasin » Sun, 10 May 2009 09:08:07

goodoleboy wrote:As a memeber of the younger generation I can say that not all of us are like that. I myself had a job but got fired due to the economy, and I DO plan on OC my lovely .380 the day I turn 21....only 3 years left


I know not all of you are like that, but unfortunately there are quite a few that are. If you are 18 and looking for a job try THESE people. My oldest son works for them, seems like a pretty good gig. You won't get rich but it is steady work.


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