Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Simple question. Now that I have my CCW permit here in VA, can I carry a loaded holstered pistol while in my vehicle? This may be common sense and obvious but I can't seem to pin point an answer by revewing the VA CCW laws.

Hi GunLvr - welcome to the forum.

Yes, you can carry concealed/loaded in your vehicle. Only places to watch out for are:

1) School property (K-12), where you must have your firearm unloaded and in a closed container (http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... 18.2-308.1)
2) Federal property (including Post Offices and parking lots) where are may not carry at all.

See the following link for more information regarding the Post Office:

http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-R ... rking-lots

GunLvr wrote:Simple question. Now that I have my CCW permit here in VA, can I carry a loaded holstered pistol while in my vehicle? This may be common sense and obvious but I can't seem to pin point an answer by revewing the VA CCW laws.

Yes! and by the way, you could have carried a loaded, holstered pistol while in your vehicle before you got your permit.

allingeneral wrote:Hi GunLvr - welcome to the forum.

Yes, you can carry concealed/loaded in your vehicle. Only places to watch out for are:

1) School property (K-12), where you must have your firearm unloaded and in a closed container (http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... 18.2-308.1)
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and don't forget about the CHP holder exemption - You can carry the gun in the parking lot, bus loop, etc, but you must remain in the car and the gun must remain concealed.

With a CHP you dont have to worry if its loaded, unloaded, holstered, not, concealed, or otherwise as long as you're aware of the restrictions above. Having said that I still treat everything else I carry like on a range trip as unloaded and in the trunk.

ProShooter wrote:Yes! and by the way, you could have carried a loaded, holstered pistol while in your vehicle before you got your permit.

This is probably a topic beaten to death, but when OC while in my vehicle I worry about the seat belt or door. My right hip is strong side and this is where the driver side seat belt snaps in place. As a passenger, my holster is next to the door. In either case, though clearly OC while mobile (edit: I meant walking around "mobile"), I imagine one would need to pray for an understanding LEO at a traffic stop.

I've been tempted to unsnap the holster and place it on the seat next to me because the law is so seriously convoluted.

§18.2-308 wrote:Prohibits the carrying of any pistol, revolver, or other weapon ... by any person hidden from common observance about his person. ... A weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

I don't yet have my CHP (DD214 and application are all set to go though) so I know I can't conceal. But how far a stretch is it if a LEO is in a bad mood and says my SIG isn't "observable"?

-Sean

Main thing about carrying in a vehicle, whether you have a concealed permit or not;...in the event you are pulled over, both hands on the wheel, topside until the officer is at your window,if it is dark out, put your interior light on first, before the officer gets out of his vehicle so he knows you are aware of the possible dangers he usually faces. It will go a LONG way as far as his attitude toward you for the remainder of your time together. He will know if you have a Concealed permit before he approaches, if you are carrying openly , on his blind side when applicable its a good Idea to reveal this info to him, asap....other than that , no problems...

+1 to the above...

or put it on the dash where there is no question of observability...

last time i got pulled over, I put my Glock 22 on the dash, even tho i have a CCP, as they do know BEFORE they approach the car if you have a CCP or not...first thing he asked me, after "Good Evening, Sir" was if i was concealing and or carrying a firearm, I said "no, i have pulled it from its concealed spot and have placed in on the dash"...pointing, as it was after dark...and after the drivers license was passed over, etc...it turned into a firearm discussion, with no ticket for the 15 mph over i had been traveling...

BluemontGlock wrote:+1 to the above...

or put it on the dash where there is no question of observability...

last time i got pulled over, I put my Glock 22 on the dash,

Bad idea! Last thing an officer wants to see as he pulls in behind you is a gun in your hand, putting it on the dashboard or not.

ProShooter wrote:

BluemontGlock wrote:+1 to the above...

or put it on the dash where there is no question of observability...

last time i got pulled over, I put my Glock 22 on the dash,

Bad idea! Last thing an officer wants to see as he pulls in behind you is a gun in your hand, putting it on the dashboard or not.

I'd rather keep mine safely on my hip until he asks. Although, the way they are trained to approach the window if its on the dash its most likely the first thing they'll see.

"Bad idea! Last thing an officer wants to see as he pulls in behind you is a gun in your hand, putting it on the dashboard or not."

A very true statement...and if you have not secured your firearm by the time you come to a stop, I would leave it where it lays...

In my case there were other factors that made it the best option at the time for that situation...but point well made.
Thank you!

Yes, just leave it wherever you have it if your pulled over. Do not try to move it or touch it. Hand him your CHP card with your DL and let him know you are armed. You can ask him how you want to proceed if you want, but do no reach for the firearm...

I haven't been pulled over yet while ive had a CHP but i will inform him and ask him how he wants to conduct the stop.

I was told by a former LEO during a training class that a handgun in a holster is considered concealed while in a vehicle. If you are open carrying, you should take the gun out of the holster and place it in clear sight such as on the passenger seat. If you leave it in the holster, that is considered concealed and you must have a CHP. Probably best to just get the CHP and carry concealed anyway. That way both you and the LEO know about it.

maljay wrote:I was told by a former LEO during a training class that a handgun in a holster is considered concealed while in a vehicle. If you are open carrying, you should take the gun out of the holster and place it in clear sight such as on the passenger seat. If you leave it in the holster, that is considered concealed and you must have a CHP. Probably best to just get the CHP and carry concealed anyway. That way both you and the LEO know about it.

if the weapon is not clearly visible to the officer/trooper it is considered "concealed". If you have a cwp, he/she will ask you if you are carrying, or if you are carrying your weapon tonight? etc.. as stated earlier, they will already know. In any case, you do NOT want to be fooling around with a gun as an officer approaches .... (I've seen it, it aint pretty.)

maljay wrote:I was told by a former LEO during a training class that a handgun in a holster is considered concealed while in a vehicle. If you are open carrying, you should take the gun out of the holster and place it in clear sight such as on the passenger seat. If you leave it in the holster, that is considered concealed and you must have a CHP. Probably best to just get the CHP and carry concealed anyway. That way both you and the LEO know about it.

Sorry to say, he was mistaken.

GS78 wrote: if the weapon is not clearly visible to the officer/trooper it is considered "concealed".

Well, not exactly.....

It is considered to be concealed when it is "hidden from common observation". You do not have to make the gun visible to everyone at every angle. To do that would mean carrying it on your head

You simply have to be carrying it in a manner where there is not an overt act on your part to hide it, like under a coat.

ProShooter wrote:

GS78 wrote: if the weapon is not clearly visible to the officer/trooper it is considered "concealed".

Well, not exactly.....

It is considered to be concealed when it is "hidden from common observation". You do not have to make the gun visible to everyone at every angle. To do that would mean carrying it on your head

You simply have to be carrying it in a manner where there is not an overt act on your part to hide it, like under a coat.

ProShooter wrote:

GS78 wrote: if the weapon is not clearly visible to the officer/trooper it is considered "concealed".

Well, not exactly.....

It is considered to be concealed when it is "hidden from common observation". You do not have to make the gun visible to everyone at every angle. To do that would mean carrying it on your head

You simply have to be carrying it in a manner where there is not an overt act on your part to hide it, like under a coat.

I know everyone has their opinion on this - but as many opinions as you'll find on this board, you'll find more among the police. Several friends of mine (all officers of various localities, including State Police) said you can absolutely be charged if you're carrying strong side on your hip and you sit down in the car - some officers would and others wouldn't... One officer may define "common observation" as a quick glance through the side windows approaching the car, and if it's sitting in the seat and he can see it - it's not concealed. If it's in a holster, and your shirt is even partly hanging over it, and the seat belt is further covering it - the officer can make the case it's concealed from "common observation". Then, it's up to the prosecuting attorney - if you were having a bad day and the officer pulls up his notes (or has a dash cam) and you were arguing with the officer - how do you think you're going to be portrayed? Further, if it makes it that far, what's the chances the judge is going to for your case or against it?

Define "conceal" -
1 : to prevent disclosure or recognition of
2 : to place out of sight

Judge: "Officer, could you see the firearm when you approached the driver?"
Officer:" No, your Honor."
You: "But it wasn't out of sight!!"

How do you think that's going to go over in court? You can't predict the outcome of a speeding ticket, why gamble with this one? I don't think this is as nearly as clear cut as people make it out to be, unfortunately. Just my $ .02...

Well, the law must be consistent. A weapon is either concealed or not. I'm not sure someone could be successfully prosecuted for something that's considered legal by one LEO and not by another. Police do not have the job of interpreting the law. Their job is enforcement. I have to agree with ProShooter on this one. The only way to make sure the weapon is always visible is to wear it on top of your head. IMO the reason the law is written this way is you simply cannot second guess every scenario of what defines concealed or open. Lets examine the code - syntactically and semantically:

18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation.....For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

Ok. If you only read the first part then a weapon is hidden while you are sitting in your car and you are in violation. BUT. Read on to how "hidden from common observation" is defined. "...when it is observable but..." The term "but" qualifies everything in the sentence before the term "but." You have to read the last clause - which is the operable part of the law: "is of such deceptive appearance..."

I think that a court would need to show your intent was to disguise the weapon's true nature. Sitting in your car with the weapon on the right hip with a seat belt on - IMHO - does not fit the last part pf the code. Now if the LEO asks you to exit the vehicle and your shirt or jacket covers the weapon then you might be in trouble.

Almost forgot - why dont you pose the question to VCDL? I'm sure this isnt the first time they've come upon this one.

zephyp wrote:18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation.....For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

Ok. If you only read the first part then a weapon is hidden while you are sitting in your car and you are in violation. BUT. Read on to how "hidden from common observation" is defined. "...when it is observable but..." The term "but" qualifies everything in the sentence before the term "but." You have to read the last clause - which is the operable part of the law: "is of such deceptive appearance....

It's probably semantics since we're not all lawyers But - the qualifier above states "...shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature."

novasig226r wrote: But how far a stretch is it if a LEO is in a bad mood and says my SIG isn't "observable"?

If a t-shirt party (or wholly) covering a firearm is construed as concealing, why *not* a seat belt? Again, if the officer states that it was not observable, the qualifier "but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature" doesn't apply, because the prosecutor could make the case it wasn't observable and that qualifier doesn't apply because the preexisting condition of said firearm being observable wasn't met. I'm not saying it's right, I don't agree with that - I'm just stating that if a LEO is in a bad mood and you get an over zealous prosecutor and a judge who just found out his wife was cheating on him and you happen to catch him in a bad mood - you might be in for the perfect storm. The way the law is written (how can something be hidden from common observation AND still be observable?) leaves a lot to be desired....

Good call on the VCDL (which I just joined, btw...) - I'm sure they've been asked as well!