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Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Big Bore and "Assault" Rifle discussions - If you don;t know why "Assault" is in quotes, then read on...

Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby OakRidgeStars » Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:58:21

Oh baby....

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http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=11444936

US Special Ops Use New Belgian Rifle in Afghan War
Unconventional Belgian rifle becomes favorite of US special operations in Afghanistan
By SLOBODAN LEKIC
The Associated Press

HERSTAL, Belgium - An unconventional Belgian assault rifle is emerging as the favorite of U.S. special operations forces looking for more firepower to turn the tide in Afghanistan.

The Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle, also known as SCAR, is intended redress the shortcomings of the M-4, an updated version of the M-16 which has been in service since the mid-1960s.

The U.S. military's workhorse rifle did well in Iraq, where much of the fighting was in urban settings. But its light rounds have underperformed in Afghanistan, where the Taliban tend to rely on deadly long-range fire.

An Army study found that the M-4s 5.56mm bullets don't retain enough velocity beyond 1,000 feet (300 meters) to kill an adversary. NATO commanders say U.S. firepower cannot always respond adequately to Taliban sharpshooters firing from 2,000 to 2,500 feet (600-800 meters).

The SCAR, manufactured by Belgian gunmaker FN Herstal, fulfills a specific special operations forces requirement for an easily modifiable rifle that to be used for both urban combat and for extended-distance shooting.

This called for a unique modular system accommodating not just the two main Western rifle calibers, the L-model for the light 5.56mm rounds and H-model for the heavier-hitting 7.62mm rounds, but also barrels of lengths in both calibers.

Many of the components can be interchanged between the two models. Both versions also allow soldiers to quickly replace their barrels to deal with a changing tactical situation.

Martin Fackler, a U.S. ballistics expert, said the SCAR-H round enjoys a clear advantage at long distances because the lighter 5.56mm bullets slow down significantly after about 400 meters (yards), sharply reducing their ability to inflict serious damage to the target.

"(In contrast) at 1,000 yards the 7.62 bullet is still traveling at over the speed of sound," Fackler said.

The U.S. Special Operations Command based in Tampa, Florida, first tested the SCAR in Afghanistan in 2009.

Last April, FN was awarded an initial contract for both versions of the SCAR and a separate grenade launcher. On Wednesday, FN announced that its U.S. plant in Colombia, South Carolina, has been authorized to start full-rate production.

Command spokesman Maj. Wesley Ticer said the command was still in the process of determining the exact quantities needed.

To date, Ticer said, the Special Operations Command has bought an initial batch of 850 lighter and 750 heavier rifles. Approximately $19 million has been spent so far on research, development, and procurement of the SCAR variants.

Analysts predict that more than 10,000 new rifles may be acquired over the next several years.

FN, which has been supplying weapons to the U.S. military for the past century, also hopes to enter the SCAR in a future U.S. Army contest to replace the M-4, a program potentially many times bigger than the existing one.

"We feel the SCAR is a solution that could meet that requirement," said Gab Bailey, FN's marketing director in the United States. He added that FN also has plans to export the rifle to other allied armies.

"While SCAR is initially meant for the U.S. special forces, we've built it to sell to the rest of the world," he said.

The production announcement comes as coalition commanders in Afghanistan have been placing much greater emphasis on small, maneuverable special operations units to hunt down al-Qaida militants and Taliban guerrillas rather than large, heavily armed formations.

The SCAR suits this strategy, analysts say.

"It's obviously good to have a multi-configuration weapon that you can tailor to any specific mission," said Jean-Claude Amiot, a retired French special forces colonel and firearms expert.

FN, the Fabrique Nationale des Armes D'Guerre, generally maintains a low public profile in Belgium, a country with strong pacifist policies which opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq and keeps defense spending well below NATO's minimum.

The firm has an interesting historical association with the United States. John Browning, one of America's foremost firearms designers, worked closely with FN to create a range of weapons. Some of them, like the ubiquitous .50 caliber heavy machine gun developed in the 1920s, remain in wide use.

FN's most infamous product was the M1910 Browning pistol used by Serbian nationalist Gavrilo Princip in 1914 to assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria , an act that triggered World War I.
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” — Edmund Burke


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Re: Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby Unkn0wN » Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:10:37

I thought they dropped these a month or two ago??

Edit: NVM..... they dropped the 5.56 Mk-16 version to go with the Mk-17 7.62 model..... Just woke up. Brain is apparently still asleep.
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Re: Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby TheGodfather » Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:23:05

That's my favorite gun in Modern Warfare 2. :machinegun:
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Re: Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby gunderwood » Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:25:47

I've held them, but wasn't all that impressed. They felt clunky compared to an AR. Several nice features though.

This is nothing but a feel good FN piece. The SOCOM still has bought them in volume to my knowledge and the Army never will unless they cost 1/3 what FN is charging now. Notice there are no comment from actual US soldiers...just this:

Command spokesman Maj. Wesley Ticer said the command was still in the process of determining the exact quantities needed.

To date, Ticer said, the Special Operations Command has bought an initial batch of 850 lighter and 750 heavier rifles. Approximately $19 million has been spent so far on research, development, and procurement of the SCAR variants.

Analysts predict that more than 10,000 new rifles may be acquired over the next several years.


The US "ballistic" expert is either an idiot or more than likely the reporter doesn't really understand what he was told. 7.62 MG ammo is not super sonic past about 900 yards. It would take very high elevations and warm weather to get that to happen. The M118LR sniper round (175gr SMK) is super sonic at 1k under most conditions. Come down to sea level when it is cold and even it struggles.

M855 ball (5.56mm) stays super sonic till aroudn 700 yards. The issue is wind and killing power, not if the round stays super sonic. Wind is an issue as 5.56 is approx. a .3 G1 while 7.62 is approx. a .4 G1. Velocity only matters to get 5.56 to fragment, which it fails to do under 2700fps give or take. After that the killing power is poor because it just creates a .22 cal hole. At lest 7.62 is creating a .30 cal hole.

Do I want one? Sure, but are they worth $2.5-3k? Nope.

I've lost track of the number of times the 5.56 and the AR was gone and it was a done deal. Won't happen anytime soon. The new brown tip and other special rounds are extending the effective range and switching to any new platform is too expensive. Expect to see more 7.62s/DMRs, but other than that, nothing much. Smalls arms are not a high priority in our modern military. Even Crane, when given a direct R&D for .338LM sniper rifle, found a .300WM that met the requirements rather than the .338LM because of cost. They simple are going to rebarrel the M24s to 300WM rather than buy new guns. Even then they are waiting until the 308s are worn out and need repair before doing it.
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Re: Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby gunderwood » Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:31:56

IIRC, these sorts of stories always come out right before it is cancled. The manufacturer is trying to save/extend the contract and they hope the public will get behind them.

IIRC, it happened when they canceled the SCAR light, the XM8, etc., etc.
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Re: Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby zephyp » Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:37:01

I'd have to have hours upon hours on the range with one of those before I carried it into combat...too many dinguses on that thing to break and go wrong...give me something a little less complex...
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...

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Re: Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby Diomed » Sun, 22 Aug 2010 02:40:05

zephyp wrote:I'd have to have hours upon hours on the range with one of those before I carried it into combat...too many dinguses on that thing to break and go wrong...give me something a little less complex...

The Marine Corps put it through several years of testing and found it to be less failure prone than the M4. Not by a huge margin, but statistically significant.


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Re: Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby gunderwood » Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:14:34

Diomed wrote:
zephyp wrote:I'd have to have hours upon hours on the range with one of those before I carried it into combat...too many dinguses on that thing to break and go wrong...give me something a little less complex...

The Marine Corps put it through several years of testing and found it to be less failure prone than the M4. Not by a huge margin, but statistically significant.

Certainly. It seems well engineering for function, but it just feel clunky. As was already pointed out, they canceled the SCAR light which would have replaced the M4. It would have to be a huge margin to justify the cost of those things.

The 7.62 guns are different. We have options, but none of them are great. There are a lot of designs for a 7.62 battle rifle, but they are either old (M14/M1A, FAL, etc.) or probably need some refinement (AR10 derivatives...Lewis machine, DPMS, RRA, etc.). Yes, I realize the basic AR10 design is old too, but almost everyone has modified the basic design. The SCAR heavy is designed and working, but costs a fortune. I don't think there is any doubt we need a larger caliber battle rifle for Afghanistan, but is that 7.62, 7mm, 6.5mm, etc. who knows. 7.62 generally gets the nod because we already have it, but the other calibers have some real advantages in ballistics. They also present less issue with mag capacity/weight and recoil. However bullet cost and logistics are generally against them.

No easy decisions.
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Re: Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby xflip14 » Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:22:45

held one at the gun show i really liked the way it felt...except for the heavy price tag off the side
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Re: Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby Diomed » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:43:52

gunderwood wrote:We have options, but none of them are great. There are a lot of designs for a 7.62 battle rifle, but they are either old (M14/M1A, FAL, etc.) or probably need some refinement (AR10 derivatives...Lewis machine, DPMS, RRA, etc.).

Hasn't the LMT gun been adopted by the Brits? There were some very upset people down in Titusville when that was announced.

I'm not a fan of either the AR-ish guns or of the SCAR, and have no dog in the fight. I just have a friend who was deeply involved in the USMC testing and was impressed with it.


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Re: Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby gunderwood » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:26:16

Diomed wrote:
gunderwood wrote:We have options, but none of them are great. There are a lot of designs for a 7.62 battle rifle, but they are either old (M14/M1A, FAL, etc.) or probably need some refinement (AR10 derivatives...Lewis machine, DPMS, RRA, etc.).

Hasn't the LMT gun been adopted by the Brits? There were some very upset people down in Titusville when that was announced.

I'm not a fan of either the AR-ish guns or of the SCAR, and have no dog in the fight. I just have a friend who was deeply involved in the USMC testing and was impressed with it.

Yes, it was, but it costs just as much as the SCAR. I think it is a very limited adoption though.

Most of the guns were are talking about here are very good battle rifles. Most of them would fulfill the role just fine, ARs included. Some are slightly more accurate, some are slightly more reliable, feel of a rifle is very subjective and personal, etc. However, I have yet to see a single design that has no quirks. Everything man made fails eventually. Engineering is a study of compromises and optimizations for a particular task.

My initial impression of the SCAR was it felt clunky compared to an AR. However, I haven't spent any time running it through military trials or hauling one around the back woods so, perhaps I would change my mind. Until someone is willing to lend me one for a few weeks so I can try it out, they just aren't high on my list of firearms I want. I'd probably buy a LMT 6.5/7.62 before I bought a SCAR based on feel alone.
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Re: Even Gunderwood doesn't have one of these.... Yet

Postby grumpyMSG » Sat, 18 Sep 2010 19:48:35

I stopped by Dominion Outdoors in Fishersville today, I was drawn in by the Remington truck parked out front and the need for some Remington Yellow Jacket .22 rounds. I did a quick look through the store and spotted a SCAR-H ( the .308 version), it had the sticker price of $3,499. That's substantially more than the LMT .308 Modular Weapon System's suggested $2,797 :
https://www.lewismachine.net/product.php?p=204&cid=0&session=79354b31068841dd28926d5fec0ed93c
Or if you have jumped on the piston bandwagon, Patriot Ordinance Factory's R308-16-MRR-308 at $2,600:
http://www.pof-usa.com/p308/p30816.htm
To it's credit, it is still a whole lot less than a Knight's Armament SR 25 at about $4,000 and up.

I have nothing but great things to say about the products from FN that I have shot, They are all high quality, and have trusted my life to them at times. LMT does a lot of work for the Special Operations crowd and if Seals, Rangers and SF trust their lives with it, it says something. I have no experience with POF products myself, but have heard nothing but great things about them, and the Rock Creek 5R barrels should help produce small groups.
The thing I find funniest/ saddest about the U.S. Military's quest for a new weapon is that they seem to constantly design them around the biggest cause of problems for the M4/M16- :doh: - the magazine.
Of course it is in the last place you looked, your not going to keep looking for something after you've found it.


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