Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Back when I actually maintained my blog, I posted the following (jeeze - back in 2008 already?):

Mazhar Nazir was a hard working cabbie who came to America (LEGALLY) from Pakistan 33 years ago. For the past 25 years he has been driving cabs. He was known for his generosity and kindness. His friend Altaf Anjun told the story of Nazir picking up a distraught Russian woman at 3 a.m. in Georgetown. She had lost all her documentation and had no contact information for anyone in this country. Nazir took her to his home, fed her and helped her contact the Russian Embassy later that day, Anjun said. Sadly, his last act on earth was one of just trying to help out a fellow American.

Early in the morning of November 2nd Evan D. Gargiulo hailed Nazir's cab and told him some sob-story about having his wallet, keys & cell phone stolen inside the Fur Nightclub in D.C. He persuaded Nazir to drive him home where he could get some cash. Instead, Gargiulo (a recent college grad with a good job as a Systems Engineer) grabbed his 9mm pistol, then asked Nazir to drive him to Tysons to get his car. Instead of paying Nazir, Gargiulo shot him "in self defense." Gargiulo then climbed into his SUV & drove away. No call to the police, no frantically running to a stranger's house to ask for help. Nope - just a visit to the D.C. Police the next day to report the theft of his stuff.

When the police finally connected the dots and asked Gargiulo about the incident, he claimed self defense. That Nazir had climbed over the seat and attacked him. Really? Then tell us, Mr. Gargiulo, how is it that Mr. Nazir was found dead in his cab, securely seatbelted in? Shot to death with the bullets from your gun. Leaving behind a wife and child - no, a widow & orphan.

The context was in that folks had been griping about the death penalty again.

Anyway - in yesterday's paper the sentance was announced: 15 years. Seriously? 15 years?

And yet, the "Georgetown Cuddler" gets 26 years. Am I the only one who thinks this is horribly skewed?

KaosDad wrote:Am I the only one who thinks this is horribly skewed?

No. I've made posts about the lack of justice coming out of the "justice system." When you are likely to spend more time in jail for owning a small piece of metal that trips the trigger more than once (auto sear) than actually murdering someone, that isn't justice. The list could go on and on.

Bottom line is this. If you do something that offends the government or points out to the sheeple that the government can't actually protect them, expect to spend a lot of time in jail.

Its sad that a samaritan like this dies trying to help someone. Its worse that the murderer only gets 15 years.

Regarding gunderwood's thoughts it is also sad that the state can step in and have their way with you for a minor transgression or not for a major one.

This discussion sort of ties in with a thought I'm toying with. I got the idea from a comment made by someone on one these anti gun stories. Instead of gun control or crime control why not criminal control. If antis would reach out and campaign to control criminals instead of guns we might have a productive discourse. Here are some ideas:

- Mandatory registration in a national database when you leave jail
- Mandatory GPS bracelets for all who leave jail until probation is complete or longer perhpas
- GPS bracelets must be open carried, undisguised, and visible whenever in public
- No alcohol and weekly urinalysis
- Mandatory 10% lifetime tax for all criminals that goes to support criminal control, jails, courts, and prisons. The percentage could be decreased incrementally for good behavior. Those not paying the tax because they "dont have a job" would get special visits from enforcers to see where their money comes from.

zephyp wrote:Its sad that a samaritan like this dies trying to help someone. Its worse that the murderer only gets 15 years.

Regarding gunderwood's thoughts it is also sad that the state can step in and have their way with you for a minor transgression or not for a major one.

This discussion sort of ties in with a thought I'm toying with. I got the idea from a comment made by someone on one these anti gun stories. Instead of gun control or crime control why not criminal control. If antis would reach out and campaign to control criminals instead of guns we might have a productive discourse. Here are some ideas:

- Mandatory registration in a national database when you leave jail
- Mandatory GPS bracelets for all who leave jail until probation is complete or longer perhpas
- GPS bracelets must be open carried, undisguised, and visible whenever in public
- No alcohol and weekly urinalysis
- Mandatory 10% lifetime tax for all criminals that goes to support criminal control, jails, courts, and prisons. The percentage could be decreased incrementally for good behavior. Those not paying the tax because they "dont have a job" would get special visits from enforcers to see where their money comes from.

I'm always leery of crack down on the criminal schemes. Consider the fact that the our government is making felons for non-violent offences. Since this is a gun board, I'll stick with gun examples. Ever heard of FFLs being pushed around or even prosecuted for minor paperwork errors? How about the auto-sear non-sense; simple possession of one makes you a felon. Forgot about Ruby Ridge? That stock was a fraction of an inch too short and he claims he didn't do it. No evidence he did either, but doesn't matter one bit. How about the GW Parkway thread on this forum not that long ago. Technically anyone who has carried on the GWP and crossed Columbia Island broke the law and is a felon. Don't forget Post Office parking lots either.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. The laws are so numerous and cover such trivial activities that everyone breaks them literally every day! You might not know they are laws. You might have no intent of breaking any law. Doesn't matter.

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." -- Cardinal De Richelieu

Second point. The punishment should fit the crime. This was the purpose of the "eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth" in Jewish Law. It is Biblical and it is just. Sure, just like our laws, it was over time perverted into retaliation. The intent was to establish a max punishment for a crime. We integrated this concept by forbidding "cruel and unusual punishment."

Third, what is just punishment? There are two key points proper punishment must fulfil. It should be designed to change and discourage bad behavior (rehabilitation) and it should restore those harmed by the action (restitution).

There are certain human beings that can not be rehabilitated, but it certainly isn't 3% of the US population (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/30/AR2006113000912.html). You can't rehabilitate someone if you completely destroy their future! Think about it. Yes, there are certain crimes that should wreak your future, but can find every last one of them in the Bible. The US code alone is an order of magnitude larger than the Bible and law is all it covers. These days a simple arrest, regardless if you committed a crime or not, can disqualify you for a good job. I am not arguing that circumstance made anyone do it. I believe that individuals have the choice regardless of their circumstances. All I'm saying is that the punishment should attempt to build character (service to others can work well, see below).

We are so caught up in "crimes against the state." We have forgotten that the reason God established government as an institution was to provide protection from the actions of others. (Read James M. Wilson, Civil Government: An Exposition of Romans XIII. 1-7, 1853; republished as The Establishment and Limits of Civil Government in 2009) A criminals debt isn't to "society," but rather to the individuals whom they harmed!

Consider this. A good parent does exactly what I described above as punishment for their children. Imperfectly yes, but with the grace of God, they do their best. I would suggest I have roughly outlined Biblical punishment (lots is missing for sure!). Zephyp, I like having discussions with you, but I want to challenge you here. How does your suggestions above, applied to everyone in a Federal, State, and local jail, fit within this Biblical framework?

Final food for thought Considering our discussions about the lack of justice in the justice system, does it surprise you that hard core, dangerous criminals get off easy, but trivial things get slapped hard? Every time the system lets a bad egg go and something happens we clamor to give them more power...

gunderwood wrote:You can't rehabilitate someone if you completely destroy their future! Think about it. Yes, there are certain crimes that should wreak your future, but can find every last one of them in the Bible. The US code alone is an order of magnitude larger than the Bible and law is all it covers. These days a simple arrest, regardless if you committed a crime or not, can disqualify you for a good job. I am not arguing that circumstance made anyone do it. I believe that individuals have the choice regardless of their circumstances. All I'm saying is that the punishment should attempt to build character (service to others can work well, see below).

We are so caught up in "crimes against the state." We have forgotten that the reason God established government as an institution was to provide protection from the actions of others. (Read James M. Wilson, Civil Government: An Exposition of Romans XIII. 1-7, 1853; republished as The Establishment and Limits of Civil Government in 2009) A criminals debt isn't to "society," but rather to the individuals whom they harmed!

Consider this. A good parent does exactly what I described above as punishment for their children. Imperfectly yes, but with the grace of God, they do their best. I would suggest I have roughly outlined Biblical punishment (lots is missing for sure!). Zephyp, I like having discussions with you, but I want to challenge you here. How does your suggestions above, applied to everyone in a Federal, State, and local jail, fit within this Biblical framework?

Final food for thought Considering our discussions about the lack of justice in the justice system, does it surprise you that hard core, dangerous criminals get off easy, but trivial things get slapped hard? Every time the system lets a bad egg go and something happens we clamor to give them more power...

Well, first the intent would not be to totally destroy every criminal's future. As I said a tax could be incrementally lowered for good behavior. No repeat offenses or new ones and the tax eventually goes away. And there is really only one reason for punishment in a judicial system - as a deterrent. Sending someone to jail obviously doesnt repay society or rehabilitate a criminal. Holding them accountable for a period of time after they leave jail might. Many criminals are repeat offenders soon after they leave jail. Make it a little tougher on them and hold them accountable.

I realize this doesnt address the injustices in our current system like a murderer getting off on a technicality or the example you used with the stock. What I was trying to do is start a discussion about shifting focus from gun control to where it properly belongs. You cant control guns. You can exert some control over those who choose to use them for naught.

Regarding a Biblical framework most of our justice system is based (whether intentionally or otherwise) on Old Testament law with focus on some of the 10 Commandments. To shift it to a New Testament posture would not work at all IMHO as the criminals of course would run rampant. With that, perhaps our justice system cannot be Bible based but perhaps the people that develop and run it should be. Our Constitution does not of course say so, but many state Constitutions at one time explicitly stated that those looking to hold public office must believe in God or profess Christ as their Savior. In other words, be men and women of good moral character. Not a lot of that going around these days, hence the injustices described by Kaosdad, you , and others.

Michael Vick--21 months fo dog fighting

Donte Stalworth--24 days for manslaughter

I rest my case.

zephyp wrote:

gunderwood wrote:You can't rehabilitate someone if you completely destroy their future! Think about it. Yes, there are certain crimes that should wreak your future, but can find every last one of them in the Bible. The US code alone is an order of magnitude larger than the Bible and law is all it covers. These days a simple arrest, regardless if you committed a crime or not, can disqualify you for a good job. I am not arguing that circumstance made anyone do it. I believe that individuals have the choice regardless of their circumstances. All I'm saying is that the punishment should attempt to build character (service to others can work well, see below).

We are so caught up in "crimes against the state." We have forgotten that the reason God established government as an institution was to provide protection from the actions of others. (Read James M. Wilson, Civil Government: An Exposition of Romans XIII. 1-7, 1853; republished as The Establishment and Limits of Civil Government in 2009) A criminals debt isn't to "society," but rather to the individuals whom they harmed!

Consider this. A good parent does exactly what I described above as punishment for their children. Imperfectly yes, but with the grace of God, they do their best. I would suggest I have roughly outlined Biblical punishment (lots is missing for sure!). Zephyp, I like having discussions with you, but I want to challenge you here. How does your suggestions above, applied to everyone in a Federal, State, and local jail, fit within this Biblical framework?

Final food for thought Considering our discussions about the lack of justice in the justice system, does it surprise you that hard core, dangerous criminals get off easy, but trivial things get slapped hard? Every time the system lets a bad egg go and something happens we clamor to give them more power...

Well, first the intent would not be to totally destroy every criminal's future. As I said a tax could be incrementally lowered for good behavior. No repeat offenses or new ones and the tax eventually goes away. And there is really only one reason for punishment in a judicial system - as a deterrent. Sending someone to jail obviously doesnt repay society or rehabilitate a criminal. Holding them accountable for a period of time after they leave jail might. Many criminals are repeat offenders soon after they leave jail. Make it a little tougher on them and hold them accountable.

I realize this doesnt address the injustices in our current system like a murderer getting off on a technicality or the example you used with the stock. What I was trying to do is start a discussion about shifting focus from gun control to where it properly belongs. You cant control guns. You can exert some control over those who choose to use them for naught.

Regarding a Biblical framework most of our justice system is based (whether intentionally or otherwise) on Old Testament law with focus on some of the 10 Commandments. To shift it to a New Testament posture would not work at all IMHO as the criminals of course would run rampant. With that, perhaps our justice system cannot be Bible based but perhaps the people that develop and run it should be. Our Constitution does not of course say so, but many state Constitutions at one time explicitly stated that those looking to hold public office must believe in God or profess Christ as their Savior. In other words, be men and women of good moral character. Not a lot of that going around these days, hence the injustices described by Kaosdad, you , and others.

Only in the 19th century, beginning in Britain, did prisons as we know them today become commonplace. The modern prisons system was born in London, as a result of the views of Jeremy Bentham. The notion of prisoners being incarcerated as part of their punishment, and not simply as a holding state till trial or hanging, was at the time revolutionary. -- Wikipeida

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison

Do you know Jeremy Bentham and his philosophy? Here is one of the fathers of the modern police state. The justice system we have today is the outcome of his ideas. When punishment becomes only about deterrent, this is what you get. I still have much reading to do, but there wasn't always a need for a massive jail system.

Edit: Just in case I wasn't clear before. The formula is simple. When bad things happen promise the people that if you only had one more thing you could have prevented it. We must realize we are feeding the beast; we the people are giving it the power to destroy and rule us.

@gunderwood - what do you propose?

I agree that out justice system sucks and is lacking in many ways mainly because of the people that run it and those passing laws...

moss20 wrote:Michael Vick--21 months fo dog fighting

Donte Stalworth--24 days for manslaughter

I rest my case.

Tell me... how much time did Lon Horiuchi do?

Justice? Not in Amerikha.

Wylde, I've read your krap before and can only suggest you go somewhere you'll be appreciated. What about Sweden? Give up that Amerika krap and join the rest of us. Why be a jerk when when you might otherwise add value to the discussion? One can only assume you have no ideas or principles of your own, only echoes of the left-handed screeds you consume.

Join the decent people.

Amerikhastan. The new Roman Empire under Nero. Eat it, buck-o.

Do you even know who Lon Horiuchi is?

The decent people tried to leave this putrid union 144 years ago. Now we're stuck with the bozos and the sycophants scrambling to defend the rights we were supposedly GUARANTEED by the framers.

Principles? Don't speak to me of principles, jack.

Gentlemen,
The passion is commendable, and you both have it!
but, please, lets keep it in perspective...and go for the high ground...

Negative comments on public figures, policies, law, and situations is fine with me,(Rick may have a different spin on this) but personal attacks back and forth get messy, and we have to watch it on the RSS feed.

You folks disagree on this subject, & It is noted.

Lets just take a deep breath, and move on....No exaplanations, no disection of the events...just "next item"...

I thank you both....as i truely enjoy both your additions to this forum...

Eliot

wylde007 wrote:

moss20 wrote:Michael Vick--21 months fo dog fighting

Donte Stalworth--24 days for manslaughter

I rest my case.

Tell me... how much time did Lon Horiuchi do?

Justice? Not in Amerikha.

Who is Lon Horiuchi and what does he have to do with our useless justice system?

moss20 wrote:Who is Lon Horiuchi and what does he have to do with our useless justice system?

FBI Sniper who murdered at least four people. He was charged with one count of manslaughter for Vicki Weaver at Ruby Ridge.

Charges were dismissed.

gatorbait wrote:Wylde, I've read your krap before and can only suggest you go somewhere you'll be appreciated. What about Sweden? Give up that Amerika krap and join the rest of us. Why be a jerk when when you might otherwise add value to the discussion? One can only assume you have no ideas or principles of your own, only echoes of the left-handed screeds you consume.

Join the decent people.

gator, I think you should apologize. Wylde at least has the conviction to stand his ground as an American first. I think you are the one who should "get with the program".I have been here much longer than you and I happen to REALLY APPRECIATE wylde's additions to this group. Let me remind you of a little bit os wisdom, " if two people agree on everything, then one of them is unnecessary. Who the hell do you think you are to speak for the entire forum, YOU DON"T SPEAK FOR ME!! Wylde IS appreciated here, as are others who don't always agree with the rest, including ME!. SWEDEN? are you kidding me? what ever gives you the impression Wylde is a communist like they are in sweden? it proves you either don't pay attention or you are on some kind of psychotropic drug.

[comment moderated]

Let's not let this discussion degrade any further. We're not here to call names, point fingers, threaten and otherwise flame others. We can remain civil and discuss things intelligently, or we can be asked to leave.

I see-after several attempts to post--that whoever runs this shebang will not even allow me the personal privilege to respond to GS78's intemperate and igonorant attack on me. That being the case, I'll adandon the field a bit sooner than I'd intended.

I will say that I thank God--and I pray that I'm not alone among all these Americans (note spelling) on the board--for bringing me into the world in the United States. I'ver served my couhtry in many ways in my 8+ decades and have been served in ample return.

It's easy to acknowledge that not everything here is ideal. It is arrant nonesense to assert that there is nothing good about the United States of America.

The space is all yours. I'll certainly no longer appear to agree with the hatred that's so obvious and certainly make no further financial contribution to support that. I had no intention of joining an anti-Americvan militia.

gatorbait wrote:I see-after several attempts to post--that whoever runs this shebang will not even allow me the personal privilege to respond to GS78's intemperate and igonorant attack on me.

Please feel free to PM Travis (wylde007) and GS78 if you wish to debate on a personal level. You do that have that option...

gatorbait wrote:I see-after several attempts to post--that whoever runs this shebang will not even allow me the personal privilege to respond to GS78's intemperate and igonorant attack on me. That being the case, I'll adandon the field a bit sooner than I'd intended.

I will say that I thank God--and I pray that I'm not alone among all these Americans (note spelling) on the board--for bringing me into the world in the United States. I'ver served my couhtry in many ways in my 8+ decades and have been served in ample return.

It's easy to acknowledge that not everything here is ideal. It is arrant nonesense to assert that there is nothing good about the United States of America.

The space is all yours. I'll certainly no longer appear to agree with the hatred that's so obvious and certainly make no further financial contribution to support that. I had no intention of joining an anti-Americvan militia.

VGOF is not anti-American. Quite the contrary. The position that we take as an organization is that the way to move our country forward is to get to the polls and vote. Although, just as in every group, there are some with more extreme views than the majority of the population. I, as the one who is "whoever runs this shebang" (along with the other moderators), have moderated posts when necessary in an effort to ensure that our forum is not viewed as anti-American in any way. At the same time, we make an effort to let people say what they want to say. It's a difficult line to tread - squelching discussion vs. allowing discussion to go off the deep end. However, when discussion stops being productive and thoughtful - as it turns into an argument over whose views are best for our country - when names start being called - that's one of the best reasons to squelch a discussion that I can think of. Nothing is is gained by "in-fighting" and the exact same points can be made intelligently without name calling.

You have the same courtesy afforded to you as every other member here. Your response quoted above makes the point well without being a direct personal attack on anyone, and I thank you for your input.

zephyp wrote:@gunderwood - what do you propose?

I agree that out justice system sucks and is lacking in many ways mainly because of the people that run it and those passing laws...

To be honest, I don't know...yet. I have not read enough to understand the various methods employed by different societies throughout the ages. I have read enough to know that the philosophical foundation of our "justice system" is flawed and arguably anti-Christian.. I am hoping that in the next year or so I can finish off a couple of law books in my queue.