Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Since I live in a border area, I've been reading the Maryland Shooters board. Apparently, MD has laws about how much powder and stuff you can own. And you can't keep powder in a building you don't own, so renters are SOL. Anything like that here?

Jim

jrswanson1 wrote: And you can't keep powder in a building you don't own, so renters are SOL. Anything like that here?

Jim

Yep. Every apartment complex I've lived in has had rules against storing certain flammable liquids or gasses, explosives, etc. Check your lease. It's an insurance issue, I believe.

chfaunce wrote:

jrswanson1 wrote: And you can't keep powder in a building you don't own, so renters are SOL. Anything like that here?

Jim

Yep. Every apartment complex I've lived in has had rules against storing certain flammable liquids or gasses, explosives, etc. Check your lease. It's an insurance issue, I believe.

Legally, as in state law. Not what the insurance companies say.

Jim

jrswanson1 wrote:

chfaunce wrote:

jrswanson1 wrote: And you can't keep powder in a building you don't own, so renters are SOL. Anything like that here?

Jim

Yep. Every apartment complex I've lived in has had rules against storing certain flammable liquids or gasses, explosives, etc. Check your lease. It's an insurance issue, I believe.

Legally, as in state law. Not what the insurance companies say.

Jim

Well, technically, you'd be violating the terms of your lease if those things are in fact prohibited, and you could therefore under the law be evicted for breach of contract. So, I'd start with looking at your lease - the contract between you and the property owner. That's kind of a big deal. It's more of what your agreement says with the property owner than what an insurance company says - sorry if that was misinterpreted. Again, every managed property where I've lived has prohibited explosive substances. So, your best bet might be to rent from a private property owner (house for rent, etc).

Check your county/city fire code. They will usually incorporate by reference the NFPA guidelines, which do have limits on the amount of powder that can be stored, effectively making that the legal limit.

Black powder storage is often regulated directly, since it's a low explosive.

Diomed wrote:Check your county/city fire code. They will usually incorporate by reference the NFPA guidelines, which do have limits on the amount of powder that can be stored, effectively making that the legal limit.

Black powder storage is often regulated directly, since it's a low explosive.

Diomed is right. VA has no law, but the local fire code usually does. Here in Loudoun county you can store up to 100lbs of smokeless powder, but anything over 50lbs has to be in a portable powder magazine. Over 100lbs is a commercial license. Interestingly the guidelines for a portable powder magazine are just that, guidelines so it appears (INAL) that you have some flexibility on your implementation of one.

chfaunce wrote:Well, technically, you'd be violating the terms of your lease if those things are in fact prohibited, and you could therefore under the law be evicted for breach of contract. So, I'd start with looking at your lease - the contract between you and the property owner. That's kind of a big deal. It's more of what your agreement says with the property owner than what an insurance company says - sorry if that was misinterpreted. Again, every managed property where I've lived has prohibited explosive substances. So, your best bet might be to rent from a private property owner (house for rent, etc).

IMHO, again INAL, those are CYA statements and probably could be shown to be non-enforceable clauses of a contract. Technically, there is no renter who does not store such things. If you have a can of paint, hairspray, etc. you are breaking the terms of the lease.

Also, I would argue in court that as long as you where within the fire code (under your local limit), by definition you are not "storing" such things because the fire code requires a license to store things like that. Under the limit means no license required and thus, no storage. None of this is legal advise though.

gunderwood wrote:IMHO, again INAL, those are CYA statements and probably could be shown to be non-enforceable clauses of a contract. Technically, there is no renter who does not store such things. If you have a can of paint, hairspray, etc. you are breaking the terms of the lease.

Also, I would argue in court that as long as you where within the fire code (under your local limit), by definition you are not "storing" such things because the fire code requires a license to store things like that. Under the limit means no license required and thus, no storage. None of this is legal advise though.

Agreed. I just never tried to test that as a theory, and I never made any attempt to negotiate the clause. Kind of one of those 'better to ask for forgiveness later than permission now' kind of deals. Figured life was just easier that way - assess and assume the risk of I suppose technically violating the lease (which I'm sure I probably did by 'storing' ammunition). Granted, I didn't rub it in their faces by firing up a propane grill or anything. "Storing" might be open to interpretation, though - there wasn't any list of definitions in the contract, unfortunately, other that definition of the 'parties'.

VA has a law that forbids landlords from denying residents their 2nd Amendment rights so here in VA ammo is obviously exempt. Not sure how one might spin that wrt powder and primers...

That's the info I'm looking for. In MD you can' t legally keep powder in a rented residence. This just confirms my brilliance in choosing to stay in VA versus moving north or to Kent Island like a friend of mine did. Thanks!

Jim

I had the local fire department tell me a few years ago that if my house caught fire they would stand a safe distance away and watch it burn. With all the powder I keep on hand there wouldn't be anything but a big hole in the ground.

Vahunter wrote:I had the local fire department tell me a few years ago that if my house caught fire they would stand a safe distance away and watch it burn. With all the powder I keep on hand there wouldn't be anything but a big hole in the ground.

Smokeless powder isn't an explosive. It would burn quickly, but unless you confine it to a very tight space, it won't "explode." There is a reason most fire codes only care about quantities larger than 50-100lbs. Black powder is a different story!

gunderwood wrote:

Vahunter wrote:I had the local fire department tell me a few years ago that if my house caught fire they would stand a safe distance away and watch it burn. With all the powder I keep on hand there wouldn't be anything but a big hole in the ground.

Smokeless powder isn't an explosive. It would burn quickly, but unless you confine it to a very tight space, it won't "explode." There is a reason most fire codes only care about quantities larger than 50-100lbs. Black powder is a different story!

True, but try explaining that to firefighters who know there are unspecified amounts of smokeless powder, black powder, primers, ammo, and who knows what else in a burning house...and see how quick they rush in...

zephyp wrote:

gunderwood wrote:

Vahunter wrote:I had the local fire department tell me a few years ago that if my house caught fire they would stand a safe distance away and watch it burn. With all the powder I keep on hand there wouldn't be anything but a big hole in the ground.

Smokeless powder isn't an explosive. It would burn quickly, but unless you confine it to a very tight space, it won't "explode." There is a reason most fire codes only care about quantities larger than 50-100lbs. Black powder is a different story!

True, but try explaining that to firefighters who know there are unspecified amounts of smokeless powder, black powder, primers, ammo, and who knows what else in a burning house...and see how quick they rush in...

Yes, I don't blame them. I was addressing the "hole in the ground" comment.

Uhmmm, the hole in the ground comment might not be an exaggeration for Henry's place...

gunderwood wrote:

Vahunter wrote:I had the local fire department tell me a few years ago that if my house caught fire they would stand a safe distance away and watch it burn. With all the powder I keep on hand there wouldn't be anything but a big hole in the ground.

Smokeless powder isn't an explosive. It would burn quickly, but unless you confine it to a very tight space, it won't "explode." There is a reason most fire codes only care about quantities larger than 50-100lbs. Black powder is a different story!

I know that and you know that but try explaining that to a know it all fireman. Iv'e had a few rounds "cook off" in my burn barrel. No dents in the barrel and I can fart louder that that.

Vahunter wrote:

gunderwood wrote:

Vahunter wrote:I had the local fire department tell me a few years ago that if my house caught fire they would stand a safe distance away and watch it burn. With all the powder I keep on hand there wouldn't be anything but a big hole in the ground.

Smokeless powder isn't an explosive. It would burn quickly, but unless you confine it to a very tight space, it won't "explode." There is a reason most fire codes only care about quantities larger than 50-100lbs. Black powder is a different story!

I know that and you know that but try explaining that to a know it all fireman. Iv'e had a few rounds "cook off" in my burn barrel. No dents in the barrel and I can fart louder that that.

Yeah, a fireman that won't engage a burning structure only due to cooking off ammunition and smokeless powder is borderline negligent and derelict. There's far more risk from sealed cans (of the soup type) and pressurized spray bottles cooking off than from small arms ammo.

Throw a can of soup in your burn barrel sometime. Or don't, if you don't want to risk injury. They're like hand grenades.

Diomed wrote:Throw a can of soup in your burn barrel sometime. Or don't, if you don't want to risk injury. They're like hand grenades.

Yup. Witnessed a couple of incidents where low brow morons placed C-rat cans on jeep engines without poking a hole in the can first...not very pretty results...

zephyp wrote:

Diomed wrote:Throw a can of soup in your burn barrel sometime. Or don't, if you don't want to risk injury. They're like hand grenades.

Yup. Witnessed a couple of incidents where low brow morons placed C-rat cans on jeep engines without poking a hole in the can first...not very pretty results...

So what I'm hearing is a bunch of right-wing militia types are stockpiling unregistered soup grenades. I presume the only reason for owning such ordinance is to overthrow the legitimate US government? As a bigger threat to national security than jihad or unsecured boarders, the black choppers are on their way, please stand by.

gunderwood wrote:

zephyp wrote:

Diomed wrote:Throw a can of soup in your burn barrel sometime. Or don't, if you don't want to risk injury. They're like hand grenades.

Yup. Witnessed a couple of incidents where low brow morons placed C-rat cans on jeep engines without poking a hole in the can first...not very pretty results...

So what I'm hearing is a bunch of right-wing militia types are stockpiling unregistered soup grenades. I presume the only reason for owning such ordinance is to overthrow the legitimate US government? As a bigger threat to national security than jihad or unsecured boarders, the black choppers are on their way, please stand by.

Realizing that your post is in jest there is a more serious point of order...why would anyone want to overthrow we the people, that is the legitimate US government...

zephyp wrote:

gunderwood wrote:

zephyp wrote:
Yup. Witnessed a couple of incidents where low brow morons placed C-rat cans on jeep engines without poking a hole in the can first...not very pretty results...

So what I'm hearing is a bunch of right-wing militia types are stockpiling unregistered soup grenades. I presume the only reason for owning such ordinance is to overthrow the legitimate US government? As a bigger threat to national security than jihad or unsecured boarders, the black choppers are on their way, please stand by.

Realizing that your post is in jest there is a more serious point of order...why would anyone want to overthrow we the people, that is the legitimate US government...

You're right, that is a serious point of order. Don't we call those folks "career politicians"?

Gunderwood makes another very good point of order, specifically that anything could be construed by power-hungry politicians to be a "threat to national security". I wouldn't put it past some of them to consider eating or cooking utensils to be as such. There was a VCDL VA-ALERT about a 64-year-old reverend from Tennessee who got treated as if he were Osama bin Laden's right-hand man.

http://www.johnsoncitypress.com/News/ar ... p?ID=80252

Yes, I know, he should've known the gun laws, and ignorance of the law is no excuse. But can we say, "gross overkill" here??