Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

I have been reloading quite a bit, so when I started getting very frequent squib loads in .38, I was having trouble admitting that I was not dropping powder in so many cases.

Dillon 550B
4.4 grains Titegroup
125 gr. Cast RN
Rem 1 1/2 primer

I had a hair up my ass to look at the squib load's case immediately after firing and it has many grains worth of raw unburned powder in it! I don't thing the powder is being ignited and the primer is all that is sending the bullet down range. One of the bullets was stuck in the barrel by the lube grooves, with the RN sticking out for 1/2 the bullet length! I pulled it out with a leatherman and pushed on. I am getting about 5% squibs and this is wacky. All had noticeable amounts of raw powder in teh cylinder and case.

I cooked up over 1000 of these so if it is a weird situation where I need a magnum primer to ignite the primer, I'm gonna be dissapoint!

Any thoughts?

Tweaker wrote:One of the bullets was stuck in the barrel by the lube grooves, with the RN sticking out for 1/2 the bullet length!

First, that was worthy of a photo!!!

I have no experience with needing magnum primers. I've used Titegroup in 9mm with cast boolits without incident, using a wide range of primers - Fed, Win, Rem & CCI. Is it possible that some tumbling media got caught up in the flash holes and went unnoticed? I use lizard litter - finely ground walnut - and if I deprime before tumbling this can happen. I always tumble before depriming. That's the only thing I can think of for now., hope you get this figured out. I'd shoot these rounds slowly and deliberately, making sure every round goes boom before moving on to the next.

Bad Primer batch?

I had some recent problems with squibs with magnum wolf primers and H110. Now H110 has a bit of a reputation as being harder to light. Pulled the bullets, loaded up 20 with Ramshot enforcer and didn't have a problem. So I've loaded and shot a few 100 more, again no problems. This was all in a 454 casul and pulling those bullets was a son-of-a-gun. Broke 2 pullers trying to pull down 200 rounds.

Also the same canister of 110 was working fine with other loads... so likely not the primer or the powder, but the combination of them. So I'm no longer using the wolf/H110 combo with large charges of H110

My suggestion is to try different primers. I'm a big fan of the tightgroup and have had no ignition problems with it in any load. But up to a year ago I could have said the same of the H110.

Oh... if you're fighting squibs you probably should get a squib rod...

I looked at the cost from midway and the like and nearly choked. I'm a hobby machinist and know what brass should cost... so I just went here:

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cf ... top_cat=79

get one of the random-length 10-12" ones... $2.50.... way better than the gun places charge.

I de-prime as I load on the Dillion, so that can't be it. (jammed flash holes w/ media)

I am away from home, so I'll have to check the brand of primers at the end of the month when I return. I have 15K of each primer brand so I have not had any problems before, or I would have noticed it.

Thanks for squib rod tip.

I had a similar problem coincidently also with .38 and Titegroup. Drove me crazy for awhile. It occured on my Dillon SDB (not on my 550. Finally noticed that the little blue plastic wingnut on the bottom of the powder bar return rod had worn a bit and slid down the threaded portion of the rod a little. The powder bar was not returning all the way back on the up stroke and that caused a significantly smaller amount of powder to be delivered to the bar and thus to the next cartridge. Called Dillon and they sent me a couple of new metal inserts that slide into the nut and grip the threads on the rod.. That solved the problem. The fact that you are seeing some powder in the case indicates to me that it is not a matter of failing to add powder but just not enough being delivered. Try pulling your handle down and returning it to the up position as you would if reloading. Check to see whether or not the powder bar returns all the way to the left.If it doesn't, that is your problem. (Don't just do it once do it quite a few times as this may be an intermittent problem.

and do the test at the normal pace/actions you run when loading.

I've found things work different when I go slow vs normal speed some times...

Thanks Geeza! I will investigate that. I don't know if the SDB is different, but perhaps I didn't increase the tension via the blue wingnut when I did these loads.

Tweaker wrote:Thanks Geeza! I will investigate that. I don't know if the SDB is different, but perhaps I didn't increase the tension via the blue wingnut when I did these loads.

You are more than welcome. It was frustrating until I found the source of the problem.
Actually the powder delivery system is identical on the SDB and 550.

jdonovan wrote:and do the test at the normal pace/actions you run when loading.
I've found things work different when I go slow vs normal speed some times...

JD makes a very important point here

I was thinking that the powder remaining was indicating that the powder was not being ignited and the bullet was propelled entirely by the primer's ignition.

Is this possible that the powder would not be ignited?

Tweaker wrote:I was thinking that the powder remaining was indicating that the powder was not being ignited and the bullet was propelled entirely by the primer's ignition.

Is this possible that the powder would not be ignited?

Howdy,

Real possible. I'm not familiar with that powder, but if the load leaves a lot of empty space in the case, the primer might not light enough of the powder to ensure complete combustion. Slow burning, dense powders in short barrels can exacerbate the problem. If you have used this load in the past without problems, I would be inclined to take Geezer's advice. Otherwise, proceed with caution...

Regards,

George

gfost1 wrote:

Tweaker wrote:I was thinking that the powder remaining was indicating that the powder was not being ignited and the bullet was propelled entirely by the primer's ignition.

Is this possible that the powder would not be ignited?

Howdy,

Real possible. I'm not familiar with that powder, but if the load leaves a lot of empty space in the case, the primer might not light enough of the powder to ensure complete combustion. Slow burning, dense powders in short barrels can exacerbate the problem. If you have used this load in the past without problems, I would be inclined to take Geezer's advice. Otherwise, proceed with caution...

Regards,

George

Actually 4.4 gr TG is a lot of powder (if that's what you actually are throwing) for .38 spcl. (or are you going for .38 +P) and what gun are you using?

In my S&W 627 5", use the following loads with Titegroup.

3.8 gr TG 158 gr JHP federal primer and get 700 f.p.s.

3.8 gr. TG 147 gr Cast LTC federal primer and get 820 f.p.s.

3.9 gr TG 160 gr coated lead RN Bayou Bullet fed primer 814 f.p.s.

In a S&W 686 4" I get

3.9 gr. TG 160 gr coated lead RN Bayou Bullet fed primer 752 f.p.s

In all the above loads the COAL is 1.485"

Hodgdon's reloading site gives the following for 125 gr. cast LRNFP with a COAL = 1.445" for .38 spcl.

MINIMUM 3.2 gr TG 856 f.p.s. 8400 c.u.p.

MAXIMUM 3.8 gr. TG 955 f.p.s. 12,000 c.u.p.

I am in fact going for a more +P load to simulate defensive loads for my LCR. It is a very accurate load and less unpleasant in my full size frame S+W.

It is pretty stout. I have worked up from 3.x to get here. There are no over pressure indications.

I guess I need to get some Magnum primers and start again at the lower powder levels if I want to try this again.

Tweaker wrote:I am in fact going for a more +P load to simulate defensive loads for my LCR. It is a very accurate load and less unpleasant in my full size frame S+W.

It is pretty stout. I have worked up from 3.x to get here. There are no over pressure indications.

I guess I need to get some Magnum primers and start again at the lower powder levels if I want to try this again.

I thought that might be the case. My loads are pretty mild just making the power factors needed for ICORE. I wonder if it might be better for you to find the source of your squib loads before starting over?

Did you have a look at that blue plastic wing nut I suggested might be the culprit?

BTW I read a number of posts online that Remington recommends not using Rem 1 1/2 but rather Rem 5 1/2 for stout loads. I use only Federal primers since my revolvers have all had trigger jobs and need a very soft primer (obviously not recommending them for your needs). When I tried Federal magnum primers I found only a very small increase in velocity.

I have been reloading many other calibers since these .38s were made. There is no play in the nut. Unless the setting was too loose, and the bar did not reliably get a full extension, then I don't know what is the deal.

Is a Rem 5 1/2 a magnum primer?

Tweaker wrote:I have been reloading many other calibers since these .38s were made. There is no play in the nut. Unless the setting was too loose, and the bar did not reliably get a full extension, then I don't know what is the deal.

Is a Rem 5 1/2 a magnum primer?

I think it is a magnum primer according to this http://ingunowners.com/forums/ammunition_and_reloading/158241-difference_between_rem_1_1_2_and_5_1_2_a.html

Here's the link to the google search I did
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22REM+1+1%2F2%22&hl=en&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=images

Update:

I finally got some time free to make some new rounds.

Other than substituting a Wolf SPP for a Rem, they were fashioned identically.

I had 110 fully normal rounds discharged. So I know that I have a good load, but I still don't know why the rest are so flawed.

I am going to go with the theory that there is insufficient powder being dropped caused by the powder bar not fully moved to the reset position, and not dropping a full load occasionally. I guess I will be using these for slow fire and keeping a rod on hand to pound out any squibs because I sure as hell ain't pulling 1000 rounds!

The odd thing is that these 9mm RN bullets I cast give amazing accuracy in my 2 revolvers, but they tumble furiously in any semi-auto I fire them in. I size them .358 for the .38s and .356 for the 9mm, from same mold. The overly large boolits get sorted for .38 duty and the smaller get resized as 9mm fodder. The 9mms keyhole so bad that teh IDPA scorers look at me funny. Makes a bigger hole, so it ain't a flaw but rather a feature I says! They are inaccurate as hell beyond 17 yards tho in the semi-autos.

That was pretty cool. But, we must not enjoy a lot. Take responsibility in every action you make. A judge in the North Atlanta area has become something of a media item for a stunt he pulled in court. While a witness was on the stand in a sexual assault case, Judge David Barrett pulled out his firearm and offered it to her, telling her she might as well kill her attorney. Judge pulls gun in Georgia court. It seems bizarre, but some areas, including the area Judge Barrett resides in, allow judges to carry handguns while presiding on the bench — but not to brandish them in court. However, other judges have done so.